The Genealogy of David L. Moody & Yvonne L. La Pointe. - Person Sheet
The Genealogy of David L. Moody & Yvonne L. La Pointe. - Person Sheet
NameJean MACKAY/MAKAILLE/MCKANE/MAKAY/MCKAYE) 
®4133, ®4134, ®4135, ®4108, ®4136, ®4077, ®4137, ®4138, ®4139, ®4140, ®4088, ®4141, ®4142, ®4143, ®4144, ®4145, ®4146, ®4147
®4133, ®4134, ®4135, ®4108, ®4136, ®4077, ®4137, ®4138, ®4139, ®4140, ®4088, ®4141, ®4142, ®4143, ®4144, ®4145, ®4146, ®4147Birthca 1761, Québec, Capitale-Nationale, Québec, Canada ®4148, ®4149, ®4150, ®4151, ®4152, ®4153, ®4154
MemoSt-Pierre et St-Paul
OccupationCultivateur ®4133
FlagsQuebec
Misc. Notes
Many MacKay decendants are related to King Niall of Ireland through his grandson Aeth, and also to King MacBeth who resided in Inverness, Inverness County, Scotland.
Notaire Sasseville, François Date 1806-03-31 Saint-Pierre et Saint-Paul (Paroisse : Baie-Saint-Paul, Québec) There is no mention of the parents of Jean Makaille in either the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of marriage, ®4133 or in the marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul at Baie-St-Paul, Quebec. ®4142
He had reached his majority of 21 years of age when he married in 1806. ®4161 In 1806 he was a 45 year old farmer who owned land measuring 5 by 50 arpents (about 1000 by 10,000 feet) on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie Saint-Paul. "Neither the Registers, neither the marriage contract which passed in front of Notary Sasseville inform us on the origin of John MacKay. He is a farmer and land owner of a five (5) by fifty (50) acre field at the "Cote" Saint-Antoine in Baie Saint-Paul". ®4142
The priest listed his name on the marriage records of 22 April 1806 as “Jean Makaille”, but Jean printed his name as “Jean Mackay” at the bottom of the record (see photograph). Salomon Symard (Simard) stood in for Jean’s father at the marriage. ®4135 Also present were Jean’s uncle, Augustin (Louis-Roch) Tremblay, Archange’s father Louis Martel, cousin Andre Tremblay and Pierre Drolet. The priest who married Jean MacKay and Archange Martel was Father Louis Lelievre, born 10 December 1762, in Quebec City, the son of Roger Lelievre and Louise Aide-Crequi. He was pastor of St.-Pierre and St.-Paul of Baie-St.-Paul from 1796 to 1829 when and where he retired. Fr. Louis Lelievre died on 21 July 1839 and was buried in Baie-St.-Paul. ®4162
Jean and Archange McKay had lived in Baie-St-Paul at the time of the marriage of their son Louis to Adele Bergeron. ®4108
Jean Mackay was 71 years old when he died in 1832 in Baie-St-Paul. “ Jean McKaye spouse of Archange Martel....On fourteen January eighteen hundred and thirty two I, undersigned Cure of Baie S. Paul, has buried in the cemetery of this parish the body of Jean MacKaye, farmer of this area, husband of Archange Martel, having died the day before today in this same parish, at age seventy one. Present Alexandre Dufrene who has signed and Michel Blais (?gravedigger) who was unable to sign. Signed B. B. Decoigne, priest, A. Dufrene ®4163
"Father Benjamin Bernard Decoigne was born 25 March 1793, in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. He was ordained priest on 22 August 1819. He is "Cure" in 1823, in Saint-Joseph-de-Beauce, Beauce, Quebec. He is "Cure" in 1829, in Baie-Saint-Paul, Charlevoix, Quebec. He died on 19 March 1840, in Baie-Saint-Paul (at 46 years of age)". Therefore, when Jean MacKay died on 14 January 1832, Father Decoigne had been there in residence for three (3) years. It is doubtful that Father Decoigne would have personally known how old Jean MacKay was when he died. His children must have supplied John's age to the priest, but since most of them did not know how to count in those days, his 71 years of age at death is doubtful or questionable. ®4164 (but Father Decoigne lists no childen in attendance at the burial.) ®208
"McCaille" was an attempted French spelling of McKay. ®4162
“The first documented source for the birth of Jean McKay around 1761 has to be the "Dictionnaire Genealogique Drouin" founded in 1899. They obviously used Jean MacKay's age of death recorded by Father B.B. Decoigne who states his age of death at "soixante-onze ans" (71) seventy one years of age: 1832-71 = 1761.
The next source to document Jean MacKay's age was Quebec genealogist Frere Eloi-Gerard Talbot born in 1899. He states that in 1806, Jean MacKay was a 45 year old farmer. How did he deduce his age? He probably used both Drouin and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded entry for Jean being 71 years of age upon death: 1761-1806 = 45 years of age (when Jean married Archange Martel).
The next source to mention Jean MacKay has to be Alain Anctil Tremblay and Chantal Gravel in their publication: "Les Grandes Familles des Eboulements et de Saint-Joseph-de-la -Rive 1733-2003/1931-2003". It was published either in 2003 or 2004. I am sure they must have looked at Jean MacKay's wedding entry in 1806, Drouin, Talbot, and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded death entry for Jean MacKay in Les Registres de Baie-St.-Paul. As I have previously stated, Quebec genealogist Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord is very doubtful that Jean MacKay died at 71 years of age. Other genealogists have also had similar concerns regarding Jean MacKay. Brisson says she has seen numerous instances where the priest entered the wrong age upon a person's death. She believes the priest most likely entered the wrong age in Jean MacKay's case. I also firmly believe that is what happened in the case of Jean MacKay. It is the only logical conclusion. My grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many small details about the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul for it to have been a case of mistaken identity. At some point in time my great-great-grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay must have met his first cousins in Baie-St.-Paul or elsewhere for my grandfather to know so much about them. The fact that Purissima McKay visited her 3rd cousin Henri McCaie in Moncton around 1965 tells me we are talking about the same MacKay family for sure.” ®4162
In 1825 Jean McKie, his wife Archange, and their 6 children lived in Baie-Saint-Paul.
“Page 1 of [1825] Census. Census Number 1957. [Jean McKie is listed on the bottom of Page 1 for Baie-St.-Paul].
a) Name of the "Head of Families" Listing: Jean McKie
b) Number of Persons residing in each Household: 10 (ten).
c) Number of absent persons from the Province belonging to this Family: - (nothing entered).
d) Number of Persons residing in the house under the age of six years of age: 2 (two). [obviously a reference to Macrine and Louis]
e) Number of Persons residing in the house over six years of age, and under 14 years of age: 3 (three). [obviously a reference to Alexandrine, Luce, and Georges]
f) Number of persons residing in the house over fourteen years of age, and under eighteen years of age: - (nothing entered)
g) Number of Men from 18 years of age, and under 25 years of age: 2 (two) not married. [obviously 2 boarders or relatives]
h) Number of Men from 40 years of age, and under 60 years of age: 1 (one) that is married. [obviously a reference to Jean McKie/MacKay]
i) Number of men from 60 years of age, and over not-married and married: - (nothing entered).
j) Number of Women from 14 years of age, and under 45 years of age: 1 (one) not-married and 1 (one) married. [obviously a reference to Florence and her mother Archange Martel]
Citation: "Canada, recensement du Bas-Canada, 1825, index and images, FamilySearch (https: //familysearch.org/pal;/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11352-5852-78?c...:n353874081:accessed 11 Feb 2014), Canada, Lower Canada Census, 1825>Canada, Lower Canada Census, 1825>Northumberland>Baie-St.-Paul>image 1.
®4165NB. If Jean MacKay was supposedly a 45 year old farmer in 1806, according to genealogist Eloi Gerard Talbot, he should have been 64 years of age during the 1825 Census; however, the Census states that he was in the category of those from 40 years of age and under 60 years of age. If we assume that Jean MacKay was born no later than 1781, in 1825 he would have been 44 years old during the Census. So, it obviously means that Jean MacKay was born sometimes between 1777 and 1781, either in the year 1779 or 1781 if we follow the birth rhythms of Alexander MacKay Sr.'s family. ®4162
7 April 2014
The following was taken from a list which comprises returns of men who swore an Oath of Allegiance to the Crown before Lieutenant-Govenor Nicolas Cox, from the communities of Paspediac, Hopetown, Port Daniel, Coxes Lake, New Lake, and New Carlisle. Most of them were Loyalists from the American colonies or soldiers from disbanded British and Hessian regiments. Found among the list is one (1) Ranald McDonl [McDonell] with the following information:
Year and Month: 1786 January.
Day: 14th.
Person's Signature: Ranald McDonl. [MacDonell].
Wife: One (1). [would be second wife Angelique Demolier widow of Alexander MacKay Sr.].
Males: One (1). [would be Alexander MacKay Jr.].
Ages*: Twelve (12). [Alexander born 28 May 1775].
Females: Two (2). [would be Marguerite McDonell and Angelique McKay].
Ages*: Fifteen (15) and Ten (10). [Marguerite born 1772; Angelique 08 February 1777].
Profession: Shopkeeper.
Township: New Lake.
Lot No.: 6 (six).
*NB. Ages supplied by Ranald McDonell to the enumerator are most likely approximations.
Source: Library and Archives Canada, RG4A1, vol. 29, pp. 9416-9424, Civil Secretary, Quebec and Lower Canada series S. Viewable on-line at: http://www.familyheritage.ca/newcarlisle.html (There is no record of a census for Douglastown in 1784/85). The above finding proves that Alexander MacKay Sr. and Angelique Demolier did not have another son named Jean after their first son Jean died on 06 August of 1773. However, it does not preclude the possibility that Jean MacKay who married Archange Martel in Baie-St.-Paul might be a relative of Alexander MacKay Sr. It should be noted that Louis MacKay, Jean and Archange Martel's son, stated in a later census that his father Jean (John) MacKay was from Scotland. ®4162
10 April 2014
Hello again Dave. Yes, I am certain that your Jean MacKay was not a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. I was a little saddened by finding the truth but I suspect you also had your doubts in the back of your mind. Diane Perron-Latour appears to be the first genealogist in Quebec who published that your/Yvonne's Jean was his son. On two occasions I've asked her who supplied her the info and on two occasions she has skirted my request by not telling me. I suspect she is the genealogist who failed to see that Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier's first son Jean MacKay died in 1773. She might be too embarrassed to admit it or the person who supplied her the info has passed on. Remember also that Marie-Anne Demolier, Angelique Demolier sister, was Alexander MacKay Jr.'s godmother. Marie-Anne Demolier who married Louis-Roch-Augustin Tremblay lived in Les Eboulements and would have known Archange Martel and Jean MacKay. My grandfather must have heard stories which were passed down from Marie-Anne Demolier to know so much about the MacKays of Baie-St.-Paul. I am pleased that you were right at first about Yvonne's Jean being born in Scotland. The only thing I can suggest now is that you do a quick search on FamilySearch.Org. Enter his name and an approximate year of birth (i.e 1760 -1790) but do not put a birthplace or county. It will give you a list of all John MacKays born in Scotland. He should be in that list. Hope this is helpful. Reg.
Notaire Sasseville, François Date 1806-03-31 Saint-Pierre et Saint-Paul (Paroisse : Baie-Saint-Paul, Québec) There is no mention of the parents of Jean Makaille in either the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of marriage, ®4133 or in the marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul at Baie-St-Paul, Quebec. ®4142
He had reached his majority of 21 years of age when he married in 1806. ®4161 In 1806 he was a 45 year old farmer who owned land measuring 5 by 50 arpents (about 1000 by 10,000 feet) on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie Saint-Paul. "Neither the Registers, neither the marriage contract which passed in front of Notary Sasseville inform us on the origin of John MacKay. He is a farmer and land owner of a five (5) by fifty (50) acre field at the "Cote" Saint-Antoine in Baie Saint-Paul". ®4142
The priest listed his name on the marriage records of 22 April 1806 as “Jean Makaille”, but Jean printed his name as “Jean Mackay” at the bottom of the record (see photograph). Salomon Symard (Simard) stood in for Jean’s father at the marriage. ®4135 Also present were Jean’s uncle, Augustin (Louis-Roch) Tremblay, Archange’s father Louis Martel, cousin Andre Tremblay and Pierre Drolet. The priest who married Jean MacKay and Archange Martel was Father Louis Lelievre, born 10 December 1762, in Quebec City, the son of Roger Lelievre and Louise Aide-Crequi. He was pastor of St.-Pierre and St.-Paul of Baie-St.-Paul from 1796 to 1829 when and where he retired. Fr. Louis Lelievre died on 21 July 1839 and was buried in Baie-St.-Paul. ®4162
Jean and Archange McKay had lived in Baie-St-Paul at the time of the marriage of their son Louis to Adele Bergeron. ®4108
Jean Mackay was 71 years old when he died in 1832 in Baie-St-Paul. “ Jean McKaye spouse of Archange Martel....On fourteen January eighteen hundred and thirty two I, undersigned Cure of Baie S. Paul, has buried in the cemetery of this parish the body of Jean MacKaye, farmer of this area, husband of Archange Martel, having died the day before today in this same parish, at age seventy one. Present Alexandre Dufrene who has signed and Michel Blais (?gravedigger) who was unable to sign. Signed B. B. Decoigne, priest, A. Dufrene ®4163
"Father Benjamin Bernard Decoigne was born 25 March 1793, in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. He was ordained priest on 22 August 1819. He is "Cure" in 1823, in Saint-Joseph-de-Beauce, Beauce, Quebec. He is "Cure" in 1829, in Baie-Saint-Paul, Charlevoix, Quebec. He died on 19 March 1840, in Baie-Saint-Paul (at 46 years of age)". Therefore, when Jean MacKay died on 14 January 1832, Father Decoigne had been there in residence for three (3) years. It is doubtful that Father Decoigne would have personally known how old Jean MacKay was when he died. His children must have supplied John's age to the priest, but since most of them did not know how to count in those days, his 71 years of age at death is doubtful or questionable. ®4164 (but Father Decoigne lists no childen in attendance at the burial.) ®208
"McCaille" was an attempted French spelling of McKay. ®4162
“The first documented source for the birth of Jean McKay around 1761 has to be the "Dictionnaire Genealogique Drouin" founded in 1899. They obviously used Jean MacKay's age of death recorded by Father B.B. Decoigne who states his age of death at "soixante-onze ans" (71) seventy one years of age: 1832-71 = 1761.
The next source to document Jean MacKay's age was Quebec genealogist Frere Eloi-Gerard Talbot born in 1899. He states that in 1806, Jean MacKay was a 45 year old farmer. How did he deduce his age? He probably used both Drouin and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded entry for Jean being 71 years of age upon death: 1761-1806 = 45 years of age (when Jean married Archange Martel).
The next source to mention Jean MacKay has to be Alain Anctil Tremblay and Chantal Gravel in their publication: "Les Grandes Familles des Eboulements et de Saint-Joseph-de-la -Rive 1733-2003/1931-2003". It was published either in 2003 or 2004. I am sure they must have looked at Jean MacKay's wedding entry in 1806, Drouin, Talbot, and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded death entry for Jean MacKay in Les Registres de Baie-St.-Paul. As I have previously stated, Quebec genealogist Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord is very doubtful that Jean MacKay died at 71 years of age. Other genealogists have also had similar concerns regarding Jean MacKay. Brisson says she has seen numerous instances where the priest entered the wrong age upon a person's death. She believes the priest most likely entered the wrong age in Jean MacKay's case. I also firmly believe that is what happened in the case of Jean MacKay. It is the only logical conclusion. My grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many small details about the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul for it to have been a case of mistaken identity. At some point in time my great-great-grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay must have met his first cousins in Baie-St.-Paul or elsewhere for my grandfather to know so much about them. The fact that Purissima McKay visited her 3rd cousin Henri McCaie in Moncton around 1965 tells me we are talking about the same MacKay family for sure.” ®4162
In 1825 Jean McKie, his wife Archange, and their 6 children lived in Baie-Saint-Paul.
“Page 1 of [1825] Census. Census Number 1957. [Jean McKie is listed on the bottom of Page 1 for Baie-St.-Paul].
a) Name of the "Head of Families" Listing: Jean McKie
b) Number of Persons residing in each Household: 10 (ten).
c) Number of absent persons from the Province belonging to this Family: - (nothing entered).
d) Number of Persons residing in the house under the age of six years of age: 2 (two). [obviously a reference to Macrine and Louis]
e) Number of Persons residing in the house over six years of age, and under 14 years of age: 3 (three). [obviously a reference to Alexandrine, Luce, and Georges]
f) Number of persons residing in the house over fourteen years of age, and under eighteen years of age: - (nothing entered)
g) Number of Men from 18 years of age, and under 25 years of age: 2 (two) not married. [obviously 2 boarders or relatives]
h) Number of Men from 40 years of age, and under 60 years of age: 1 (one) that is married. [obviously a reference to Jean McKie/MacKay]
i) Number of men from 60 years of age, and over not-married and married: - (nothing entered).
j) Number of Women from 14 years of age, and under 45 years of age: 1 (one) not-married and 1 (one) married. [obviously a reference to Florence and her mother Archange Martel]
Citation: "Canada, recensement du Bas-Canada, 1825, index and images, FamilySearch (https: //familysearch.org/pal;/MM9.3.1/TH-1-11352-5852-78?c...:n353874081:accessed 11 Feb 2014), Canada, Lower Canada Census, 1825>Canada, Lower Canada Census, 1825>Northumberland>Baie-St.-Paul>image 1.
®4165NB. If Jean MacKay was supposedly a 45 year old farmer in 1806, according to genealogist Eloi Gerard Talbot, he should have been 64 years of age during the 1825 Census; however, the Census states that he was in the category of those from 40 years of age and under 60 years of age. If we assume that Jean MacKay was born no later than 1781, in 1825 he would have been 44 years old during the Census. So, it obviously means that Jean MacKay was born sometimes between 1777 and 1781, either in the year 1779 or 1781 if we follow the birth rhythms of Alexander MacKay Sr.'s family. ®4162
7 April 2014
The following was taken from a list which comprises returns of men who swore an Oath of Allegiance to the Crown before Lieutenant-Govenor Nicolas Cox, from the communities of Paspediac, Hopetown, Port Daniel, Coxes Lake, New Lake, and New Carlisle. Most of them were Loyalists from the American colonies or soldiers from disbanded British and Hessian regiments. Found among the list is one (1) Ranald McDonl [McDonell] with the following information:
Year and Month: 1786 January.
Day: 14th.
Person's Signature: Ranald McDonl. [MacDonell].
Wife: One (1). [would be second wife Angelique Demolier widow of Alexander MacKay Sr.].
Males: One (1). [would be Alexander MacKay Jr.].
Ages*: Twelve (12). [Alexander born 28 May 1775].
Females: Two (2). [would be Marguerite McDonell and Angelique McKay].
Ages*: Fifteen (15) and Ten (10). [Marguerite born 1772; Angelique 08 February 1777].
Profession: Shopkeeper.
Township: New Lake.
Lot No.: 6 (six).
*NB. Ages supplied by Ranald McDonell to the enumerator are most likely approximations.
Source: Library and Archives Canada, RG4A1, vol. 29, pp. 9416-9424, Civil Secretary, Quebec and Lower Canada series S. Viewable on-line at: http://www.familyheritage.ca/newcarlisle.html (There is no record of a census for Douglastown in 1784/85). The above finding proves that Alexander MacKay Sr. and Angelique Demolier did not have another son named Jean after their first son Jean died on 06 August of 1773. However, it does not preclude the possibility that Jean MacKay who married Archange Martel in Baie-St.-Paul might be a relative of Alexander MacKay Sr. It should be noted that Louis MacKay, Jean and Archange Martel's son, stated in a later census that his father Jean (John) MacKay was from Scotland. ®4162
10 April 2014
Hello again Dave. Yes, I am certain that your Jean MacKay was not a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. I was a little saddened by finding the truth but I suspect you also had your doubts in the back of your mind. Diane Perron-Latour appears to be the first genealogist in Quebec who published that your/Yvonne's Jean was his son. On two occasions I've asked her who supplied her the info and on two occasions she has skirted my request by not telling me. I suspect she is the genealogist who failed to see that Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier's first son Jean MacKay died in 1773. She might be too embarrassed to admit it or the person who supplied her the info has passed on. Remember also that Marie-Anne Demolier, Angelique Demolier sister, was Alexander MacKay Jr.'s godmother. Marie-Anne Demolier who married Louis-Roch-Augustin Tremblay lived in Les Eboulements and would have known Archange Martel and Jean MacKay. My grandfather must have heard stories which were passed down from Marie-Anne Demolier to know so much about the MacKays of Baie-St.-Paul. I am pleased that you were right at first about Yvonne's Jean being born in Scotland. The only thing I can suggest now is that you do a quick search on FamilySearch.Org. Enter his name and an approximate year of birth (i.e 1760 -1790) but do not put a birthplace or county. It will give you a list of all John MacKays born in Scotland. He should be in that list. Hope this is helpful. Reg.
Research
Check Nova Scotia
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:42:38 -0400
From: jeanrosem@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MACKAY] Donald Mackay
To: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com, mackay@rootsweb.com
Message-ID: <8CAAE785D20047E-408-159B@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Just nosing in.? I have a hunch that your MacKay went to Nova Scotia.? My Rose family was also from Ross and Cromarty and they left on the ship "Rowena" for? Pictou, Nova Scotia in 1799.? A couple of the kids married into the MacKay family in NS.
Jean?
Did he emigrate from Scotland? Why did he wait until he was 45 to marry? In 1806 the priest wrote “Makaille”, but he signed “Jean Mackay”. Why was he “Jean” Mackay? He must have lived in Quebec for some time to not call himself “John”. He was married at age 45 in Baie St. Paul, so check land records in that area for the 5 by 50 arpents he owned on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie Saint-Paul. I Quebec arpent equalled 191.83 ft, so he owned an area about 1000 by 10,000 feet.
It was suggested that land records might be most useful. A notarial record could not be located. He could not be found in the "Catalog of Catholic Immigrants from the British Isles before 1925 " by Norman Robert and Michel Thibault, nor in the land grant references. Given the location on the St. Laurence and the elongated shape of the land it is thought that it might have been land purchased from a Seigneurie, but the records, if in existence, are not in Montreal.
While at the Quebec Archives and SGCF in Montreal in 2008 David Moody had several great assistants who tried to find the former life of Jean Mackay before he owned a lot of land and married at age 45 in 1806. There is another “Jean Makaille” of Baie-du-Febvre who had a stillborn child with his second wife, Josephte Alie, but it was after the 1806 marriage in Baie-St-Paul. (this Jean is not a McKay at all but a "McAuchin" or "MacAhen". This Jean McAuchin (Jr.) was the son of John McAuchin/MacAhen (Sr.) and Anastasie Hamel. John McAuchin/MacAhen (Sr.) was born 1737 in Dorbe, Scotland, the son of Daniel and Catherine McAuchin. Jean McAuchin (Jr.) was married twice; 1st. with Josephe Allie, then with Josephe Boisvert.) ®4162 ®4166A second "Jean Mackay” was identified who married Marie Louise Dorre in St. Eustache on 13 October 1788, but St. Eustache is a Montreal suburb and felt to be too far distant from Baie-St-Paul.
I am not related to this Jean McKay. My Jean Mackay was the son of
Francis Mackay, an Officer in the French and Indian War, who
married the daughter of a French Officer in the same war. He, too,
is hard to pin down. Francis and Samuel Mackay, two officers in the
60th Royal American Regiment, claimed to be the sons of a Scottish
Soldier of Fortune who was serving Empress Maria Theresa when they
were born in Transylvania. We've never found any records beyond
their arrival in North American in 1755. So, we've assumed we are
Scottish, but DNA testing has added to the mystery. Our Mackay
yDNA is more common in Eastern Europe than in Scotland.
Because they married in Canada and left descendants there, I have
researched the Mackays and McKays of Quebec pretty thoroughly.
Your wife's Jean Mackay shows up on records, but his parents have
always been listed as unknown.
I will contact the woman I corresponded with and get her
permission to share her name and e-mail address with you.
Bridget
1 March 2013
We have forwarded your request to the Quebec archives centre that will follow-up.
Centre d'archives de Québec
Pavillon Louis-Jacques-Casault
Campus de l'Université Laval
1055, avenue du Séminaire
Case postale 10450, succursale Sainte-Foy
Québec (Québec) G1V 4N1
Tél. : 418 643-8904
Téléc. : 418 646-0868
Courriel : archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
Please note that because of the large number of requests and the required search time, replies could take from three to four weeks. We thank you for your interest in Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec. Do not hesitate to contact our services again.
User services
-----------------------
Numéro : 1813432
Date d'envoi : 2013-02-28
De : David Moody
Courriel : deltalimemike@gmail.com
Jean Mackay (the surname has also been spelled Makaille-Mckaye-McKane-Makay in the documents in which he is mentioned), married at age 45 on 22 April 1806 in Baie-Saint-Paul to Marie-Archange Martel, age 14, and he was buried there on 14 January 1832. While at the Archives and at the SGCF in Montreal for a week in 2008 I had several Archive assistants who tried to find the parents of Jean as they were interested that there was no mention of his parents in either the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of marriage, or in the marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul.
They suggested land records might be useful as in 1806 he owned land at Baie Saint-Paul but no notarial records regarding the land or land grant references could be located in Montreal. Given the location and the elongated shape of the land it is thought that it might have been land purchased from a Seigneurie, but the Seigneurie records, if in existence, were not located in Montreal.
I contacted the Archives in Charlevoix who confirmed the above details but had no land records. I need a copy of the Land Record of the property owned by John/Jean MacKay at Baie-Saint-Paul residing on a 5 by 50 arpents lot known as la Cote Sainte-Antoine, or records of transactions between Jean's farm and other individuals in Baie Saint Paul.
If you have no Land Records, I would appreciate a reference to where I might locate them. I would be happy to pay for time and expenses, in US dollars, in advance or later, at your preference.
Thank you in advance.
David L. Moody, M.D.
6 Belted Kingfisher Rd
Fernandina Beach, Florida 32034
USA
deltalimemike@gmail.com
5 March 2013
Mister Moody,
The Land in Baie-Saint-Paul and in Côte-de-Beaupré were owned by the Séminaire de Québec. The archives of those lands still remain in the Séminaire’s archival collection which is actually preserved at the Musée de l’Amérique française. You can find their contact information on the following link: http://www.mcq.org/en/maf/renseignements.html If you need to contact us again for any other questions, please use the following address:
archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
Kind regards,
Marie-Eve Poulin
Archiviste de référence
Section de la Diffusion
Direction des services aux usagers et aux partenaires
Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec
Pavillon Louis-Jacques-Casault,
Cité universitaire
Québec (Québec) G1V 4N1
archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
http://www.banq.qc.ca
12 April 2013
Our file number Q7-26324
Dear Mr. Moody:
In reply to your e-mail inquiry concerning Jean (John) Mackay (McKay, MacKie, etc., I wish to advise you that not all land records from the 1800s have survived. Library and Archives Canada holds many of the records that have survived. Our Lower Canada Land Petitions database is available on our website at www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/lower-canada/index-e.html. The records have been digitized and are searchable by name. Consult the Search Help page for more information about the records. Keep in mind, however, that even if you do find a land record, it will not provide family background information about the person, such as parents’ names. Note that, although the name was spelled Jean in the marriage record, be sure to also search for the spelling John. You did not mention whether or not you had tried tracing his children. As you may know, he had a son Louis MacKay (McKane), who married Adele Bergeron.
Here is a brief biography of Louis: http://genealogiestfulgence.com/biographie_pionniers.htm “Louis Mackay et son épouse Adèle Bergeron, tous deux oroginaires de Baie-Saint-Paul, se marièrent dans la paroisse de Saint-Alexis-de-Grande-Baie le 21 janvier 1850. Aussitôt après leur mariage, le couple vint s'établir à Saint-Fulgence sur une terre, située en bas du Remous, qui occupait une superficie de cent cinquante acres en 1861. Bien qu'il ait été cultivateur la majeure partie de sa vie, Louis Mackay déclara être journalier au moulin à scie au village en 1891. En 1879, le pionnier fit don de sa terre à son fils Jean, né en 1857 à Saint-Fulgence et seul garçon d'une famille de six enfants. Louis Mackay et sont épouse sont décédés à Saint-Fulgence, lui en 1913 à l'âge de 87 ans et elle, âgée de 63 ans, en 1896.”
Information about census records can be found on our website www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy under What to Search - Topics: Census and Enumerations. As explained on that page, census returns are arranged by place. The Census Indexes page provides links to databases that can be searched by name or place, many with digitized images. When searching a database, please note that spelling variations of names are common. Also, it is sometimes difficult for indexers to interpret the handwriting of the census enumerators, especially on pages with poor legibility. If you cannot find a reference in an index, you should search the census pages for the place where your ancestor resided. If you find a reference in a database, be sure to look at the actual census page, which will include more information. Also, the database may contain incorrect details. We cannot do extensive research in census records; however, a cursory search found a reference to a Louis and Delphine MacKay in the 1891 census of St Fulgence. The 1891 census was the only year in which residents were asked the country or province of birth of their father and mother. Louis indicated that his father was born in Scotland (Ecosse). You can view that census page free on our website at:
www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/index-e.html
For information about the records and how to use the database, consult the Search Help pages. Our census records are also available on www.ancestry.com and www.ancestry.ca. If you do not have a subscription, it might be available at your local library or genealogical society. Family Search has indexed the Lower Canada census for 1825 and 1831. Their indexes use a Soundex search for name variations and even so, I could find no reference to any MacKay in the right area. However, with old records like that, indexing error rates are high. Due to the large volume of inquiries we receive, we are unable to undertake extensive research assignments. Should you wish to hire someone to make a search of those early census records on your behalf, a list of local free-lance researchers is available on our website under Hiring a Freelance Researcher:
www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/freelance-researchers/Pages/freelance-researchers.aspx
Here are the microfilm reel numbers: 1825: Baie-St-Paul, Northumberland District, reel C-718. 1831: Baie-St-Paul, Saguenay District, reel C-721 Those records only give the name of the head of the household, with no details about age or background. A free-lance researcher could also look at the microfilm for any of the Lower Canada land records references that are not digitized in our database. If you are not familiar with Family Search, the Family History Library (FHL) in Salt Lake City, Utah, holds microfilm copies of genealogical records from many countries, including Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Europe. On their website at https://familysearch.org/ you can use their Records database to search many indexes and digitized collections. You can also scroll down the page to view the menu to find out what records and indexes are available online for a specific place. Use the Genealogies database to search family trees submitted by other researchers. Use the Books link to view digitized genealogy books. Use the Catalog to search for records that are only available on microfilm. Their microfilm reels can be viewed at your nearest Family History Center. The Family History Library holds copies of many Quebec and Ontario Roman Catholic church records. Some are digitized online and others are only available on microfilm.
I regret that there is nothing else we can suggest for your research into land or other records.
Sincerely,
Mary Munk
Genealogical Consultant / Conseillère en généalogie
Genealogy Services / Services de généalogie
Information and Research Services Division / Division des services de l'information et de la recherche
Library and Archives Canada / Bibliothèque et Archives Canada
395 Wellington St., Ottawa ON
Canada K1A 0N4
mary.munk@bac-lac.gc.ca
Telephone / Téléphone: 1-866-578-7777
Facsimile : Télécopieur 613-995-6274
Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
www.collectionscanada.gc.ca
16 April 2013
Hello Mr. Moody,
I was able to devote some time to your request regarding land records of John MacKay (and various spellings). As I am the only person responding to requests and must deal with the great volume via e-mail as well as on-site consultations, the response time can be quite long.
I first looked in the general card catalog for the Seminary archives and did not find anything pertaining to John MacKay, nor the other spellings of the name that you provided in your e-mail. However, the land records (titles) for the Seminary’s lands are not indexed in the card catalog. Unfortunately, the titles have no index of their own and the list must be consulted visually. I did this for Baie-Saint-Paul, first for the land in the Côte Saint-Antoine, then for the entire seigneurie. Once again, there was no mention of John MacKay nor any other spelling of this name.
The one thing that I did find that may be remotely related to your request is title #62 for Baie St-Paul, in the Mare à la Truite section of the seigneurie. There was a grant to Jean Martel of 5 arpents (noted to be in effect 4 arpents at the bottom of the document) by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19 on 2 July 1728, drawn up by notary J. Jacob.
I know from your e-mail that John MacKay married Marie-Archange Martel. It was perhaps on HER family’s land that MacKay and his wife resided. I know that many Anglophones received grants in the seigneurie of Malbaie (Murray Bay) and it is possible that MacKay was from there, but married and settled where his wife was from, which would be typical. The size of the grant corresponds with your information, though it was not a unique plot size.
Unfortunately, I only found that record relating to the Martel property. Any subsequent sales between individuals or bequests from owner to child would be found in the notarized records, which would be at the National Archives of Quebec. They have a database of notarized records, known as Parchemin. I’m not sure if it can be consulted online (www.banq.qc.ca).
I find it unusual that John’s parents’ names can not be found in the marriage documents. It would be unlikely, though not impossible, to find this information in land documents. You may also want to pursue research with the archdiocesan archives to see if perhaps John MacKay was a Protestant who converted to Catholicism in order to marry or for whatever reason.
I hope that this information helps and at least points you in the right direction to find what you are looking for. Good luck with your research.
- Peter Gagné, archivist
Centre de référence de l’Amérique française
Musée de la civilisation (Québec)
418-644-6742 | peter.gagne@mcq.org
Tues - Thurs, 8:30-12:00 & 13:30 à 16:30
24 April 2013
APPENDIX B (p. 38). TITLE−DEED OF THE SEIGNIORY OF MURRAY BAY GRANTED TO CAPTAIN JOHN NAIRNE OF THE 78th REGIMENT, APRIL 27th, 1762
By the Honourable James Murray, Esquire, Governor of Quebec, &c.
Whereas it is a national advantage and tends to promote the cultivation of lands within the province to encourage His Majesty's natural−born subjects settling within the same:
For these purposes, and in consideration of the faithful services rendered by John Nairne, Esquire, Captain in the 78th Regiment of Foot, unto His Majesty, I do hereby give, grant, and concede unto the said Captain John Nairne, his heirs, executors, and administrators for ever, all that extent of land lying on the north side of the river St. Lawrence from the Cap aux Oyes, limit of the parish of Eboulemens, to the south side of the river of Malbaie, and for three leagues back, to be known hereafter, at the special request of said John Nairne, by the name of Murray's Bay; firmly to hold the same to himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators for ever, or until His Majesty's pleasure is further known, for and in consideration of the possessor's paying liege homage to His Majesty, his heirs and successors, at his castle of St. Lewis in Quebec on each mutation of property, and, by way of acknowledgment, a piece of gold of the value of ten shillings, with one year's rent of
the domain reserved, as customary in this country, together with the woods and rivers, or other appurtenances within the said extent, right of fishing or fowling on the same therein included without hindrance or molestation; all kind of traffic with the Indians of the back country hereby specially excepted. Given under my hand and seal at Quebec, this 27th day of April, 1762.
The 78th Regiment, (Highland) Regiment of Foot otherwise known as the 78th Fraser Highlanders was a British infantry regiment of the line raised in Scotland in 1757, to fight in the Seven Years' War (known in the USA as the French and Indian War ). The 84th Regiment of Foot (Royal Highland Emigrants) was a British regiment in the American Revolutionary War (1776) that was raised to defend present day Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada from the constant land and sea attacks by American Revolutionaries. The regiment consisted of 2,000 men in twenty companies. The 84th Regiment was raised from Scottish soldiers who had served in the Seven Years' War and stayed in North America. As a result, the 84th Regiment had one of the oldest and most experienced officer corps of any regiment in North America. Lieutenant Colonel Allan Maclean commanded the first battalion and Major General John Small of Strathardle commanded the second. The two Battalions operated independently of each other and saw little action together.
Well, just as I had suspected from the start, that John or Jean MacKay was probably born in Scotland. Quebec genealogist Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc's personal opinion was that he was probably one of James Cuthbert 's Scottish imports after he purchased the Seignerie de Berthier located in Berthierville - Lanaudiere, often referred to as Berthier-en-Haut. James Cuthbert was born in Scotland and was a descendant of the famous Cuthberts of Castlehill who lived in Inverness, Inverness County, Scotland. They resided in the Old Castle in the Castlehill area of Inverness, the same area where Alexander MacKay was born. If John/Jean MacKay was from Inverness chances are that he is related to Alexander MacKay. ®4162
5 May 2013
Jean Mackay was how Jean (or someone else) printed his name on the 22 April 1806 marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul at Baie-Saint-Paul, Quebec. The priest had written the name as Jean Makaille. (Why did the priest not use Mackay when someone could print it for him?) No one signed that marriage register as parents, or in lieu of the parents of Jean Mackay.
The “Contrats de mariage de Charlevoix, 1737-1920, et du Haut-Saguenay, 1840-1911” Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec Centre d'archives de Québec, CN304,S17, disponible sur microfilms Numéro de l'acte 1559 has no mention of the parents of Jean Makaille in the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of the marriage.
Jean married Marie-Archange Martel, age 13 years, 10 months, born 25 May 1792 in Les Eboulements. Talbot, Éloi-Gérard, Frere, F.M.S.: “Généalogie de Charlevoix- Saguenay”, vol. 2, p. 270, and vol. 4, pp. 74-93 states that in 1806 Jean was a 45 year old farmer who owned land measuring 5 by 50 arpents (about 1000 by 10,000 feet) on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie-Saint-Paul. This is about 18 miles from 13 year old Marie-Archangeʼs home at Les Eboulements. Peter Gagné, archivist, Centre de référence de lʼAmérique française, Musée de la civilisation (Québec) said: “The one thing that I did find that may be remotely related to your request is title #62 for Baie-Saint-Paul, in the Mare à la Truite section of the seigneurie. There was a grant to Jean Martel of 5 arpents (noted to be in effect 4 arpents at the bottom of the document) by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19 on 2 July 1728, drawn up by notary J. Jacob.” The quotes from Drouin et al make it sound like Jean had lived on his 5 by 50 arpents prior to his marriage to Marie-Archange on 22 April 1806, which is 78 years after the land, which may not be identical in size or location, was granted to Jean Martel.
The “Drouin Genealogical Dictionary”, and Anctil-Tremblay, Alain & Gravel, Chantal: “Les Grandes Families Baie-Saint-Paul 1681-2001”, vol. X11, p. 1088 and the Drouin burial entry concur that Jean Mackay was 71 years old when he died on 14 January 1832 in Baie-St-Paul. So both agree that Jean was born about 1761. Jeanʼs birth in 1761 is therefore secondary information from 2 sources, Talbot, Drouin and Anctil-Tremblay, and primary from Drouin, but they are the only sources found. I believe those 3 independent sources; but it would be really nice to find the primary sources each of those two used, for confirmation.
The 1891 Census of Canada, the only census which asked for the birth location of the father and mother, records that Jean Mackayʼs son Louis, born 11 March 1825, then 66 years old, living in Saint-Fulgence, claimed Louisʼ father Jean Makay was born in Scotland and Louisʼ mother Marie-Archange Martel was born in Quebec. This claim, though primary, is suspect as Louis was 7 years old when his father died, and by age 25, Louis had moved to Grand Baie where on 21 January 1850 he married Adele Bergeron, born 10 August 1831 in La Malbaie. Later they moved to Saint-Fulgence where Louis died on 1 April 1913, so he probably had little contact with his siblings and he was only 5 when his mother and 7 when his father died and 66 when he remembered it for the 1891 census. However, family lore repeats that Louis was made aware of a land inheritance in Scotland, but was dissuaded from investigating the claim by his family. It would be helpful to confirm Scotland on the 1891 census of the 4 daughters, if any survived to 1891.
Marie-Archange Mackay died on 28 March 1830 and Jean Mackay was buried on 14 January 1832, both in Baie-Saint-Paul, leaving orphans Florence, 21, Georges, 20, Lucine, 17, Alexandrine, 14, Macorine, 11, and Louis, 7.
I cannot locate Jeanʼs children other than Louis on the 1891 census to further verify that Jean was born in Scotland. Georges, baptised 19 November 1812, was buried on 25 January 1870 in Baie-Saint-Paul. Georges married in Baie-Saint-Paul on 25 May 1841 to Adele Simard, who was baptised 4 April 1826 in Baie-Saint-Paul, indicating that he, as the oldest son, probably inherited from his father Jean the 5 by 50 arpents of land on the Cote Saint-Antoine of Baie-Saint-Paul. Florence baptised 13 January 1811 married Paul Baret on 1 June 1840, Lucine born 5 September 1815 married Jacques Bolduc on 3 August 1840, Alexandrine born 25 July 1818 married Nazaire Bouchard on 11 January 1842, and Macorine born 1 November 1821 I cannot locate. All three daughters married at Petite-Riviere-Saint-Francois in 1840-2, suggesting that some of the orphans lived for 8 years with a family in that town.
Knowing the fallibility of genealogical data, if we assume the birth date of 1761 and birth place of Scotland for Jean:
What do we know about Jean that might tell us about his mother. He supposedly was born in Scotland where his birth documents may reside, which is why we cannot find them in North America. His printed "Jean" rather than "John" suggests a limited education in French as the priests and notaries used cursive writing. The adoption of Jean for his Scots name John suggests he may have been educated in Quebec or at least lived there for a long enough time to adopt “Jean” for the community in which he lived.
So what are the possibilities:
1. It is most likely that Jean's father and John/Jean and probably whatever other family there was immigrated to Quebec independently sometime after John/Jean was born in 1761.
2. It is possible that John/Jean had traveled to North America and enlisted at age 14 in the Royal Highland Emigrants (84th Regiment of Foot) which was a British regiment that was recruited from American Loyalists in the Colonies and veterans of the 42nd, 77th, and 78th Regiments of Foot who had stayed in Canada. The 84th Regiment was disbanded in 1784. This is a possibility though their history does not indicate the 84th recruited from Scotland.
3. What is not a possibility is for John/Jean to have been born in Scotland in 1761 if his father was in North America with the 78th Regiment of Foot from fall 1757 to 1763 when the 78th disbanded.
The question which might provide a breakthrough is the ownership(s) of the land in Cote Saint Antoine. It is possible Jean received it as a dowry even though Marie-Archangeʼs parents lived 18 miles away in Les Eboulements. But the quotes from Drouin et al make it sound like Jean had lived on the farm prior to his marriage to Marie-Archange in 1806. I think that Jeanʼs parents had both died before Jeanʼs marriage in 1806 as the most likely reason that Jean's parents did not sign the marriage register and therefore the land had been Jeanʼs for some time. If Jean was never in the 78th Regiment of Foot, he would have had no officer to sign for his parents. Jeanʼs parents death would also explain why they are not mentioned in the notaryʼs contract of marriage. I suspect Jean inherited the (5 by 50 arpents) of land from his father before 1806, who had received it for services to the Seigniory, or purchased it with funds he brought from Scotland, possibly from Jean Martel if it is the same land Martel was granted in 1728 (4 by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19). However, it sounds from the letters from the various archives that I will never know Jean's father's name.
31 December 2013 “I received an e-mail today from Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc telling me that unfortunately, because of other priorities, she is no longer researching your Jean McKay. She believes now that your Jean McKay was probably recruited in Scotland by the "Cie de la Baie" (Company of the Bay) to take care of the "Trading Post" de la Malbaie. As I was re-looking at the striking resemblance between pictures of Purissima McKay and our family, it dawned on me that if your Jean McKay were a brother of Alexandre MacKay (Jr.) he would have been born after him because when Alexandre married Rose LePage he (Alexandre) is referred to as "Fils majeur" (oldest son) "de defunt" (of deceased) Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique (Demolier). It almost implies that there might have been a younger brother! Something to think about. Have a good one. Reg McCaie, Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.” ®4162
3 January 2014 “List of the "Mainckey" listed in this parish (Quebec City: Catholic):
1787
Mainckey, Jean (Frederic).
Source: University of Montreal Genealogy Web Site
________________________________________________________________
P.S. The above might be Yvonne's ancestor. Another theory that crossed my mind that is not relevant to the above would be that " if " Yvonne's "Jean McKay" were a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier, and Jean (2nd) McKay was born after "Fils majeur/older son" Alexandre (Jr.) who was born in 1775 and his sister Angelique who was born in 1777, that could place Jean's birth circa 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781, maybe 1782. Angelique Demolier remarried Rene (Rand) McDonnell/MacDonald in 1782. Since we don't know the exact date of death of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) might Yvonne's Jean MacKay possibly have been baptized with the family name: "McDonnell/McDonald"? Angelique Demolier could have been pregnant with Alexander's son when she remarried Rene McDonnell.” ®4162
4 January 2014
Yes, the marriage date of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier is correct (30 April 1772, at Holy Trinity Anglican or known at the time as Metropolitan Anglican of Quebec City). Their first child Jean was born baptized 25 December 1772, and died 7 August 1773, as you correctly stated. However, since some Quebec genealogist (one in particular) are skeptical about Yvonne's Jean McKay getting married at age of 45 in 1806, I'm theorizing "again" that Yvonne's Jean might have been born later that 1761. Although - you may be right in saying that he (Yvonne's Jean) might have been a brother of Alexander MacKay (Sr.). That could help explain the strong/striking ressemblance in pictures of Purissima McKay and my aunt Adrienne McCaie/sister Gisele McCaie. The fact that my grandfather Henri McCaie knew that there were "McKays" (Macailles) in Baie-St.-Paul and also knew practically all the names of Jean McKay and Archange Martel's children leads me to believe that it was more that a passed down story from Marianne Demolier (Angelique Demolier's sister) who lived in Les Eboulements, the same birth town of Archange Martel. I seem to remember "now" my grandfather Henri McCaie saying that they (Baie-St.-Paul McKays) were the same McKays/McCaie as us, that we were related! I'll try to ask Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc about this Jean (Frederic) Mainckey who is probably a McKay. Given she has a bank of practically all McKays in Quebec, she might know off hand who this one is. I'll also try to find out about the Trading Post de La Malbaie. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jean McKay?
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:17:48 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
Alexander Mackay and Angelique Demolier were married in 1772 (according to your information which I have not tried to verify.) Their first child, Jean was baptized 25 Dec 1772 at the parish of Notre Dame Quebec and was buried there 7 August 1773, so if Yvonne's Jean was age 45 in 1806 and age 71 when he died in 1832, he was born ca 1761, 11 years before Alexander and Angelique married. The dates suggest that he would have been a brother of Alexander, rather than a son. If I remember correctly you do not have Alexander's siblings and parents, and their birth places, but if you do find them, that may be the relationship.
What does the 1787 mean? Is it the year "Mainckey" was of the Quebec City parish? If so he was ca age 16.
Was Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc right that Jean McKay was probably recruited in Scotland by the "Cie de la Baie" (Company of the Bay) to take care of the "Trading Post" de la Malbaie. If so, is there any way to know the year he would have been at the trading post, or the years the trading post was in existence?
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:42:38 -0400
From: jeanrosem@aol.com
Subject: Re: [MACKAY] Donald Mackay
To: gc-gateway@rootsweb.com, mackay@rootsweb.com
Message-ID: <8CAAE785D20047E-408-159B@WEBMAIL-DF05.sysops.aol.com>
Just nosing in.? I have a hunch that your MacKay went to Nova Scotia.? My Rose family was also from Ross and Cromarty and they left on the ship "Rowena" for? Pictou, Nova Scotia in 1799.? A couple of the kids married into the MacKay family in NS.
Jean?
Did he emigrate from Scotland? Why did he wait until he was 45 to marry? In 1806 the priest wrote “Makaille”, but he signed “Jean Mackay”. Why was he “Jean” Mackay? He must have lived in Quebec for some time to not call himself “John”. He was married at age 45 in Baie St. Paul, so check land records in that area for the 5 by 50 arpents he owned on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie Saint-Paul. I Quebec arpent equalled 191.83 ft, so he owned an area about 1000 by 10,000 feet.
It was suggested that land records might be most useful. A notarial record could not be located. He could not be found in the "Catalog of Catholic Immigrants from the British Isles before 1925 " by Norman Robert and Michel Thibault, nor in the land grant references. Given the location on the St. Laurence and the elongated shape of the land it is thought that it might have been land purchased from a Seigneurie, but the records, if in existence, are not in Montreal.
While at the Quebec Archives and SGCF in Montreal in 2008 David Moody had several great assistants who tried to find the former life of Jean Mackay before he owned a lot of land and married at age 45 in 1806. There is another “Jean Makaille” of Baie-du-Febvre who had a stillborn child with his second wife, Josephte Alie, but it was after the 1806 marriage in Baie-St-Paul. (this Jean is not a McKay at all but a "McAuchin" or "MacAhen". This Jean McAuchin (Jr.) was the son of John McAuchin/MacAhen (Sr.) and Anastasie Hamel. John McAuchin/MacAhen (Sr.) was born 1737 in Dorbe, Scotland, the son of Daniel and Catherine McAuchin. Jean McAuchin (Jr.) was married twice; 1st. with Josephe Allie, then with Josephe Boisvert.) ®4162 ®4166A second "Jean Mackay” was identified who married Marie Louise Dorre in St. Eustache on 13 October 1788, but St. Eustache is a Montreal suburb and felt to be too far distant from Baie-St-Paul.
I am not related to this Jean McKay. My Jean Mackay was the son of
Francis Mackay, an Officer in the French and Indian War, who
married the daughter of a French Officer in the same war. He, too,
is hard to pin down. Francis and Samuel Mackay, two officers in the
60th Royal American Regiment, claimed to be the sons of a Scottish
Soldier of Fortune who was serving Empress Maria Theresa when they
were born in Transylvania. We've never found any records beyond
their arrival in North American in 1755. So, we've assumed we are
Scottish, but DNA testing has added to the mystery. Our Mackay
yDNA is more common in Eastern Europe than in Scotland.
Because they married in Canada and left descendants there, I have
researched the Mackays and McKays of Quebec pretty thoroughly.
Your wife's Jean Mackay shows up on records, but his parents have
always been listed as unknown.
I will contact the woman I corresponded with and get her
permission to share her name and e-mail address with you.
Bridget
1 March 2013
We have forwarded your request to the Quebec archives centre that will follow-up.
Centre d'archives de Québec
Pavillon Louis-Jacques-Casault
Campus de l'Université Laval
1055, avenue du Séminaire
Case postale 10450, succursale Sainte-Foy
Québec (Québec) G1V 4N1
Tél. : 418 643-8904
Téléc. : 418 646-0868
Courriel : archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
Please note that because of the large number of requests and the required search time, replies could take from three to four weeks. We thank you for your interest in Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec. Do not hesitate to contact our services again.
User services
-----------------------
Numéro : 1813432
Date d'envoi : 2013-02-28
De : David Moody
Courriel : deltalimemike@gmail.com
Jean Mackay (the surname has also been spelled Makaille-Mckaye-McKane-Makay in the documents in which he is mentioned), married at age 45 on 22 April 1806 in Baie-Saint-Paul to Marie-Archange Martel, age 14, and he was buried there on 14 January 1832. While at the Archives and at the SGCF in Montreal for a week in 2008 I had several Archive assistants who tried to find the parents of Jean as they were interested that there was no mention of his parents in either the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of marriage, or in the marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul.
They suggested land records might be useful as in 1806 he owned land at Baie Saint-Paul but no notarial records regarding the land or land grant references could be located in Montreal. Given the location and the elongated shape of the land it is thought that it might have been land purchased from a Seigneurie, but the Seigneurie records, if in existence, were not located in Montreal.
I contacted the Archives in Charlevoix who confirmed the above details but had no land records. I need a copy of the Land Record of the property owned by John/Jean MacKay at Baie-Saint-Paul residing on a 5 by 50 arpents lot known as la Cote Sainte-Antoine, or records of transactions between Jean's farm and other individuals in Baie Saint Paul.
If you have no Land Records, I would appreciate a reference to where I might locate them. I would be happy to pay for time and expenses, in US dollars, in advance or later, at your preference.
Thank you in advance.
David L. Moody, M.D.
6 Belted Kingfisher Rd
Fernandina Beach, Florida 32034
USA
deltalimemike@gmail.com
5 March 2013
Mister Moody,
The Land in Baie-Saint-Paul and in Côte-de-Beaupré were owned by the Séminaire de Québec. The archives of those lands still remain in the Séminaire’s archival collection which is actually preserved at the Musée de l’Amérique française. You can find their contact information on the following link: http://www.mcq.org/en/maf/renseignements.html If you need to contact us again for any other questions, please use the following address:
archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
Kind regards,
Marie-Eve Poulin
Archiviste de référence
Section de la Diffusion
Direction des services aux usagers et aux partenaires
Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec
Pavillon Louis-Jacques-Casault,
Cité universitaire
Québec (Québec) G1V 4N1
archives.quebec@banq.qc.ca
http://www.banq.qc.ca
12 April 2013
Our file number Q7-26324
Dear Mr. Moody:
In reply to your e-mail inquiry concerning Jean (John) Mackay (McKay, MacKie, etc., I wish to advise you that not all land records from the 1800s have survived. Library and Archives Canada holds many of the records that have survived. Our Lower Canada Land Petitions database is available on our website at www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/lower-canada/index-e.html. The records have been digitized and are searchable by name. Consult the Search Help page for more information about the records. Keep in mind, however, that even if you do find a land record, it will not provide family background information about the person, such as parents’ names. Note that, although the name was spelled Jean in the marriage record, be sure to also search for the spelling John. You did not mention whether or not you had tried tracing his children. As you may know, he had a son Louis MacKay (McKane), who married Adele Bergeron.
Here is a brief biography of Louis: http://genealogiestfulgence.com/biographie_pionniers.htm “Louis Mackay et son épouse Adèle Bergeron, tous deux oroginaires de Baie-Saint-Paul, se marièrent dans la paroisse de Saint-Alexis-de-Grande-Baie le 21 janvier 1850. Aussitôt après leur mariage, le couple vint s'établir à Saint-Fulgence sur une terre, située en bas du Remous, qui occupait une superficie de cent cinquante acres en 1861. Bien qu'il ait été cultivateur la majeure partie de sa vie, Louis Mackay déclara être journalier au moulin à scie au village en 1891. En 1879, le pionnier fit don de sa terre à son fils Jean, né en 1857 à Saint-Fulgence et seul garçon d'une famille de six enfants. Louis Mackay et sont épouse sont décédés à Saint-Fulgence, lui en 1913 à l'âge de 87 ans et elle, âgée de 63 ans, en 1896.”
Information about census records can be found on our website www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/genealogy under What to Search - Topics: Census and Enumerations. As explained on that page, census returns are arranged by place. The Census Indexes page provides links to databases that can be searched by name or place, many with digitized images. When searching a database, please note that spelling variations of names are common. Also, it is sometimes difficult for indexers to interpret the handwriting of the census enumerators, especially on pages with poor legibility. If you cannot find a reference in an index, you should search the census pages for the place where your ancestor resided. If you find a reference in a database, be sure to look at the actual census page, which will include more information. Also, the database may contain incorrect details. We cannot do extensive research in census records; however, a cursory search found a reference to a Louis and Delphine MacKay in the 1891 census of St Fulgence. The 1891 census was the only year in which residents were asked the country or province of birth of their father and mother. Louis indicated that his father was born in Scotland (Ecosse). You can view that census page free on our website at:
www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/index-e.html
For information about the records and how to use the database, consult the Search Help pages. Our census records are also available on www.ancestry.com and www.ancestry.ca. If you do not have a subscription, it might be available at your local library or genealogical society. Family Search has indexed the Lower Canada census for 1825 and 1831. Their indexes use a Soundex search for name variations and even so, I could find no reference to any MacKay in the right area. However, with old records like that, indexing error rates are high. Due to the large volume of inquiries we receive, we are unable to undertake extensive research assignments. Should you wish to hire someone to make a search of those early census records on your behalf, a list of local free-lance researchers is available on our website under Hiring a Freelance Researcher:
www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/freelance-researchers/Pages/freelance-researchers.aspx
Here are the microfilm reel numbers: 1825: Baie-St-Paul, Northumberland District, reel C-718. 1831: Baie-St-Paul, Saguenay District, reel C-721 Those records only give the name of the head of the household, with no details about age or background. A free-lance researcher could also look at the microfilm for any of the Lower Canada land records references that are not digitized in our database. If you are not familiar with Family Search, the Family History Library (FHL) in Salt Lake City, Utah, holds microfilm copies of genealogical records from many countries, including Canada, the United States, the United Kingdom and Europe. On their website at https://familysearch.org/ you can use their Records database to search many indexes and digitized collections. You can also scroll down the page to view the menu to find out what records and indexes are available online for a specific place. Use the Genealogies database to search family trees submitted by other researchers. Use the Books link to view digitized genealogy books. Use the Catalog to search for records that are only available on microfilm. Their microfilm reels can be viewed at your nearest Family History Center. The Family History Library holds copies of many Quebec and Ontario Roman Catholic church records. Some are digitized online and others are only available on microfilm.
I regret that there is nothing else we can suggest for your research into land or other records.
Sincerely,
Mary Munk
Genealogical Consultant / Conseillère en généalogie
Genealogy Services / Services de généalogie
Information and Research Services Division / Division des services de l'information et de la recherche
Library and Archives Canada / Bibliothèque et Archives Canada
395 Wellington St., Ottawa ON
Canada K1A 0N4
mary.munk@bac-lac.gc.ca
Telephone / Téléphone: 1-866-578-7777
Facsimile : Télécopieur 613-995-6274
Government of Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
www.collectionscanada.gc.ca
16 April 2013
Hello Mr. Moody,
I was able to devote some time to your request regarding land records of John MacKay (and various spellings). As I am the only person responding to requests and must deal with the great volume via e-mail as well as on-site consultations, the response time can be quite long.
I first looked in the general card catalog for the Seminary archives and did not find anything pertaining to John MacKay, nor the other spellings of the name that you provided in your e-mail. However, the land records (titles) for the Seminary’s lands are not indexed in the card catalog. Unfortunately, the titles have no index of their own and the list must be consulted visually. I did this for Baie-Saint-Paul, first for the land in the Côte Saint-Antoine, then for the entire seigneurie. Once again, there was no mention of John MacKay nor any other spelling of this name.
The one thing that I did find that may be remotely related to your request is title #62 for Baie St-Paul, in the Mare à la Truite section of the seigneurie. There was a grant to Jean Martel of 5 arpents (noted to be in effect 4 arpents at the bottom of the document) by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19 on 2 July 1728, drawn up by notary J. Jacob.
I know from your e-mail that John MacKay married Marie-Archange Martel. It was perhaps on HER family’s land that MacKay and his wife resided. I know that many Anglophones received grants in the seigneurie of Malbaie (Murray Bay) and it is possible that MacKay was from there, but married and settled where his wife was from, which would be typical. The size of the grant corresponds with your information, though it was not a unique plot size.
Unfortunately, I only found that record relating to the Martel property. Any subsequent sales between individuals or bequests from owner to child would be found in the notarized records, which would be at the National Archives of Quebec. They have a database of notarized records, known as Parchemin. I’m not sure if it can be consulted online (www.banq.qc.ca).
I find it unusual that John’s parents’ names can not be found in the marriage documents. It would be unlikely, though not impossible, to find this information in land documents. You may also want to pursue research with the archdiocesan archives to see if perhaps John MacKay was a Protestant who converted to Catholicism in order to marry or for whatever reason.
I hope that this information helps and at least points you in the right direction to find what you are looking for. Good luck with your research.
- Peter Gagné, archivist
Centre de référence de l’Amérique française
Musée de la civilisation (Québec)
418-644-6742 | peter.gagne@mcq.org
Tues - Thurs, 8:30-12:00 & 13:30 à 16:30
24 April 2013
APPENDIX B (p. 38). TITLE−DEED OF THE SEIGNIORY OF MURRAY BAY GRANTED TO CAPTAIN JOHN NAIRNE OF THE 78th REGIMENT, APRIL 27th, 1762
By the Honourable James Murray, Esquire, Governor of Quebec, &c.
Whereas it is a national advantage and tends to promote the cultivation of lands within the province to encourage His Majesty's natural−born subjects settling within the same:
For these purposes, and in consideration of the faithful services rendered by John Nairne, Esquire, Captain in the 78th Regiment of Foot, unto His Majesty, I do hereby give, grant, and concede unto the said Captain John Nairne, his heirs, executors, and administrators for ever, all that extent of land lying on the north side of the river St. Lawrence from the Cap aux Oyes, limit of the parish of Eboulemens, to the south side of the river of Malbaie, and for three leagues back, to be known hereafter, at the special request of said John Nairne, by the name of Murray's Bay; firmly to hold the same to himself, his heirs, executors, and administrators for ever, or until His Majesty's pleasure is further known, for and in consideration of the possessor's paying liege homage to His Majesty, his heirs and successors, at his castle of St. Lewis in Quebec on each mutation of property, and, by way of acknowledgment, a piece of gold of the value of ten shillings, with one year's rent of
the domain reserved, as customary in this country, together with the woods and rivers, or other appurtenances within the said extent, right of fishing or fowling on the same therein included without hindrance or molestation; all kind of traffic with the Indians of the back country hereby specially excepted. Given under my hand and seal at Quebec, this 27th day of April, 1762.
The 78th Regiment, (Highland) Regiment of Foot otherwise known as the 78th Fraser Highlanders was a British infantry regiment of the line raised in Scotland in 1757, to fight in the Seven Years' War (known in the USA as the French and Indian War ). The 84th Regiment of Foot (Royal Highland Emigrants) was a British regiment in the American Revolutionary War (1776) that was raised to defend present day Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada from the constant land and sea attacks by American Revolutionaries. The regiment consisted of 2,000 men in twenty companies. The 84th Regiment was raised from Scottish soldiers who had served in the Seven Years' War and stayed in North America. As a result, the 84th Regiment had one of the oldest and most experienced officer corps of any regiment in North America. Lieutenant Colonel Allan Maclean commanded the first battalion and Major General John Small of Strathardle commanded the second. The two Battalions operated independently of each other and saw little action together.
Well, just as I had suspected from the start, that John or Jean MacKay was probably born in Scotland. Quebec genealogist Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc's personal opinion was that he was probably one of James Cuthbert 's Scottish imports after he purchased the Seignerie de Berthier located in Berthierville - Lanaudiere, often referred to as Berthier-en-Haut. James Cuthbert was born in Scotland and was a descendant of the famous Cuthberts of Castlehill who lived in Inverness, Inverness County, Scotland. They resided in the Old Castle in the Castlehill area of Inverness, the same area where Alexander MacKay was born. If John/Jean MacKay was from Inverness chances are that he is related to Alexander MacKay. ®4162
5 May 2013
Jean Mackay was how Jean (or someone else) printed his name on the 22 April 1806 marriage register of St-Pierre et St-Paul at Baie-Saint-Paul, Quebec. The priest had written the name as Jean Makaille. (Why did the priest not use Mackay when someone could print it for him?) No one signed that marriage register as parents, or in lieu of the parents of Jean Mackay.
The “Contrats de mariage de Charlevoix, 1737-1920, et du Haut-Saguenay, 1840-1911” Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec Centre d'archives de Québec, CN304,S17, disponible sur microfilms Numéro de l'acte 1559 has no mention of the parents of Jean Makaille in the notarial record by Sasseville of the contract of the marriage.
Jean married Marie-Archange Martel, age 13 years, 10 months, born 25 May 1792 in Les Eboulements. Talbot, Éloi-Gérard, Frere, F.M.S.: “Généalogie de Charlevoix- Saguenay”, vol. 2, p. 270, and vol. 4, pp. 74-93 states that in 1806 Jean was a 45 year old farmer who owned land measuring 5 by 50 arpents (about 1000 by 10,000 feet) on the Cote Saint-Antoine at Baie-Saint-Paul. This is about 18 miles from 13 year old Marie-Archangeʼs home at Les Eboulements. Peter Gagné, archivist, Centre de référence de lʼAmérique française, Musée de la civilisation (Québec) said: “The one thing that I did find that may be remotely related to your request is title #62 for Baie-Saint-Paul, in the Mare à la Truite section of the seigneurie. There was a grant to Jean Martel of 5 arpents (noted to be in effect 4 arpents at the bottom of the document) by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19 on 2 July 1728, drawn up by notary J. Jacob.” The quotes from Drouin et al make it sound like Jean had lived on his 5 by 50 arpents prior to his marriage to Marie-Archange on 22 April 1806, which is 78 years after the land, which may not be identical in size or location, was granted to Jean Martel.
The “Drouin Genealogical Dictionary”, and Anctil-Tremblay, Alain & Gravel, Chantal: “Les Grandes Families Baie-Saint-Paul 1681-2001”, vol. X11, p. 1088 and the Drouin burial entry concur that Jean Mackay was 71 years old when he died on 14 January 1832 in Baie-St-Paul. So both agree that Jean was born about 1761. Jeanʼs birth in 1761 is therefore secondary information from 2 sources, Talbot, Drouin and Anctil-Tremblay, and primary from Drouin, but they are the only sources found. I believe those 3 independent sources; but it would be really nice to find the primary sources each of those two used, for confirmation.
The 1891 Census of Canada, the only census which asked for the birth location of the father and mother, records that Jean Mackayʼs son Louis, born 11 March 1825, then 66 years old, living in Saint-Fulgence, claimed Louisʼ father Jean Makay was born in Scotland and Louisʼ mother Marie-Archange Martel was born in Quebec. This claim, though primary, is suspect as Louis was 7 years old when his father died, and by age 25, Louis had moved to Grand Baie where on 21 January 1850 he married Adele Bergeron, born 10 August 1831 in La Malbaie. Later they moved to Saint-Fulgence where Louis died on 1 April 1913, so he probably had little contact with his siblings and he was only 5 when his mother and 7 when his father died and 66 when he remembered it for the 1891 census. However, family lore repeats that Louis was made aware of a land inheritance in Scotland, but was dissuaded from investigating the claim by his family. It would be helpful to confirm Scotland on the 1891 census of the 4 daughters, if any survived to 1891.
Marie-Archange Mackay died on 28 March 1830 and Jean Mackay was buried on 14 January 1832, both in Baie-Saint-Paul, leaving orphans Florence, 21, Georges, 20, Lucine, 17, Alexandrine, 14, Macorine, 11, and Louis, 7.
I cannot locate Jeanʼs children other than Louis on the 1891 census to further verify that Jean was born in Scotland. Georges, baptised 19 November 1812, was buried on 25 January 1870 in Baie-Saint-Paul. Georges married in Baie-Saint-Paul on 25 May 1841 to Adele Simard, who was baptised 4 April 1826 in Baie-Saint-Paul, indicating that he, as the oldest son, probably inherited from his father Jean the 5 by 50 arpents of land on the Cote Saint-Antoine of Baie-Saint-Paul. Florence baptised 13 January 1811 married Paul Baret on 1 June 1840, Lucine born 5 September 1815 married Jacques Bolduc on 3 August 1840, Alexandrine born 25 July 1818 married Nazaire Bouchard on 11 January 1842, and Macorine born 1 November 1821 I cannot locate. All three daughters married at Petite-Riviere-Saint-Francois in 1840-2, suggesting that some of the orphans lived for 8 years with a family in that town.
Knowing the fallibility of genealogical data, if we assume the birth date of 1761 and birth place of Scotland for Jean:
What do we know about Jean that might tell us about his mother. He supposedly was born in Scotland where his birth documents may reside, which is why we cannot find them in North America. His printed "Jean" rather than "John" suggests a limited education in French as the priests and notaries used cursive writing. The adoption of Jean for his Scots name John suggests he may have been educated in Quebec or at least lived there for a long enough time to adopt “Jean” for the community in which he lived.
So what are the possibilities:
1. It is most likely that Jean's father and John/Jean and probably whatever other family there was immigrated to Quebec independently sometime after John/Jean was born in 1761.
2. It is possible that John/Jean had traveled to North America and enlisted at age 14 in the Royal Highland Emigrants (84th Regiment of Foot) which was a British regiment that was recruited from American Loyalists in the Colonies and veterans of the 42nd, 77th, and 78th Regiments of Foot who had stayed in Canada. The 84th Regiment was disbanded in 1784. This is a possibility though their history does not indicate the 84th recruited from Scotland.
3. What is not a possibility is for John/Jean to have been born in Scotland in 1761 if his father was in North America with the 78th Regiment of Foot from fall 1757 to 1763 when the 78th disbanded.
The question which might provide a breakthrough is the ownership(s) of the land in Cote Saint Antoine. It is possible Jean received it as a dowry even though Marie-Archangeʼs parents lived 18 miles away in Les Eboulements. But the quotes from Drouin et al make it sound like Jean had lived on the farm prior to his marriage to Marie-Archange in 1806. I think that Jeanʼs parents had both died before Jeanʼs marriage in 1806 as the most likely reason that Jean's parents did not sign the marriage register and therefore the land had been Jeanʼs for some time. If Jean was never in the 78th Regiment of Foot, he would have had no officer to sign for his parents. Jeanʼs parents death would also explain why they are not mentioned in the notaryʼs contract of marriage. I suspect Jean inherited the (5 by 50 arpents) of land from his father before 1806, who had received it for services to the Seigniory, or purchased it with funds he brought from Scotland, possibly from Jean Martel if it is the same land Martel was granted in 1728 (4 by 50 arpents of lots 17, 18 and a part of 19). However, it sounds from the letters from the various archives that I will never know Jean's father's name.
31 December 2013 “I received an e-mail today from Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc telling me that unfortunately, because of other priorities, she is no longer researching your Jean McKay. She believes now that your Jean McKay was probably recruited in Scotland by the "Cie de la Baie" (Company of the Bay) to take care of the "Trading Post" de la Malbaie. As I was re-looking at the striking resemblance between pictures of Purissima McKay and our family, it dawned on me that if your Jean McKay were a brother of Alexandre MacKay (Jr.) he would have been born after him because when Alexandre married Rose LePage he (Alexandre) is referred to as "Fils majeur" (oldest son) "de defunt" (of deceased) Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique (Demolier). It almost implies that there might have been a younger brother! Something to think about. Have a good one. Reg McCaie, Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada.” ®4162
3 January 2014 “List of the "Mainckey" listed in this parish (Quebec City: Catholic):
1787
Mainckey, Jean (Frederic).
Source: University of Montreal Genealogy Web Site
________________________________________________________________
P.S. The above might be Yvonne's ancestor. Another theory that crossed my mind that is not relevant to the above would be that " if " Yvonne's "Jean McKay" were a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier, and Jean (2nd) McKay was born after "Fils majeur/older son" Alexandre (Jr.) who was born in 1775 and his sister Angelique who was born in 1777, that could place Jean's birth circa 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781, maybe 1782. Angelique Demolier remarried Rene (Rand) McDonnell/MacDonald in 1782. Since we don't know the exact date of death of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) might Yvonne's Jean MacKay possibly have been baptized with the family name: "McDonnell/McDonald"? Angelique Demolier could have been pregnant with Alexander's son when she remarried Rene McDonnell.” ®4162
4 January 2014
Yes, the marriage date of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier is correct (30 April 1772, at Holy Trinity Anglican or known at the time as Metropolitan Anglican of Quebec City). Their first child Jean was born baptized 25 December 1772, and died 7 August 1773, as you correctly stated. However, since some Quebec genealogist (one in particular) are skeptical about Yvonne's Jean McKay getting married at age of 45 in 1806, I'm theorizing "again" that Yvonne's Jean might have been born later that 1761. Although - you may be right in saying that he (Yvonne's Jean) might have been a brother of Alexander MacKay (Sr.). That could help explain the strong/striking ressemblance in pictures of Purissima McKay and my aunt Adrienne McCaie/sister Gisele McCaie. The fact that my grandfather Henri McCaie knew that there were "McKays" (Macailles) in Baie-St.-Paul and also knew practically all the names of Jean McKay and Archange Martel's children leads me to believe that it was more that a passed down story from Marianne Demolier (Angelique Demolier's sister) who lived in Les Eboulements, the same birth town of Archange Martel. I seem to remember "now" my grandfather Henri McCaie saying that they (Baie-St.-Paul McKays) were the same McKays/McCaie as us, that we were related! I'll try to ask Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc about this Jean (Frederic) Mainckey who is probably a McKay. Given she has a bank of practically all McKays in Quebec, she might know off hand who this one is. I'll also try to find out about the Trading Post de La Malbaie. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Jean McKay?
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:17:48 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
Alexander Mackay and Angelique Demolier were married in 1772 (according to your information which I have not tried to verify.) Their first child, Jean was baptized 25 Dec 1772 at the parish of Notre Dame Quebec and was buried there 7 August 1773, so if Yvonne's Jean was age 45 in 1806 and age 71 when he died in 1832, he was born ca 1761, 11 years before Alexander and Angelique married. The dates suggest that he would have been a brother of Alexander, rather than a son. If I remember correctly you do not have Alexander's siblings and parents, and their birth places, but if you do find them, that may be the relationship.
What does the 1787 mean? Is it the year "Mainckey" was of the Quebec City parish? If so he was ca age 16.
Was Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc right that Jean McKay was probably recruited in Scotland by the "Cie de la Baie" (Company of the Bay) to take care of the "Trading Post" de la Malbaie. If so, is there any way to know the year he would have been at the trading post, or the years the trading post was in existence?
Research
6 January 2014
Scottish soldiers of the Fraser's Highlanders in particular were known for being much older than their brides some as much as 30 years older. My grandfather had told us that our Scottish ancestor was much older that his wife which turned out to be true. Ironically, one of Angelique Demolier's great-grandmother "Marie Quinquenelle" was also a "Fille du roi 1641-". Quite honestly, I've never received a reply from Diane Perron-Latour as to where or from whom she received the information stating your Jean MacKay was a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. Unless her source was "oral" and from someone that may have died, she has not come clean to explain herself. It would be nice to know for sure. If he were a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier he would have been born way after Alexander (Jr.) maybe around 1781. That would put Jean's age of marriage at 25 and his death at 52. That might be more palatable for Nataly...If not, did John/Jean MacKay leave Inverness by boat to the Orkney Islands before heading to Quebec? "Maquet" is a French family name like Paquet, etc. I believe it is the French version/translation of the MacKay family name in France. If you dig up something new, let me know. A la prochaine/later. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Alexander Mackay (Sr.)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 18:06:14 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
Thanks for the information about the Trading Post and Marianne's comments.
It would be nice if Nataly Brisson had something positive to offer. Why does Jean have to be younger than 45 to marry a woman 32 years his junior, especially when Alexander married Angelique who was 26 years his junior. I imagine with the small early population there were not a lot of women of marrying age, and many older women died of childbirth. Yvonne's 8th GGrandmother was one of the 768 "Filles du Roi” or Founding Mothers of New France who came to Canada in 1670 at about age 17, and most were married within the year, mostly to older men.
You say "it would appear that your sources are correct". If you have personally verified my translations of the 3 sources, you could send them to Nataly to refute, if she can.
I misspoke about Jean possibly being a brother to Alexander, Sr. From his probable birth date of 1761 he more likely would have been a contemporary to Alexander, Jr, born in 1775 in Quebec. Moreover, I assume from your comment below that that is unlikely he was a brother to Alexander, Jr., as you would have discovered Jean while researching the children of Alexander Sr.
As the Trading Post was operating by about 1803, Jean at age 42 being sent from somewhere to run it makes Marianne's thesis very possible.
By the way, what is a "Maquet" family?
Thanks for everything.
On Jan 5, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Reg McCaie wrote:
Got your message. It would appear that your sources are correct. A Quebec genealogist who has refuted some of those claims in the past is Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord. I've had trouble with her before trying to convince her otherwise. She believes because Jean McKay was 45 when he married 13 year old Archange Martel something just does not add up. She claims she has seen several instances in Parish Registers with erroneous stated ages to back up her hypothesis on Jean McKay. She firmly believes he was much younger than 45 when he married. She may be right or she may be wrong.
Alexander (William) MacKay (Sr.) was born on 08 September 1724 in the Cassellhill area of the Town of Inverness, Inverness Co., Scotland, the son of William MacKay and Margaret Fraser. So if Yvonne's Jean McKay was born in 1761 he would be 37 years younger than Alexander (Sr.) which is probably unlikely they are brothers. They could be cousins or related in some other way such as nephew, etc. I have not done a thorough search on other siblings of Alexander in Scotland. All I can say is that Alexander MacKay (Sr.) was 26 years older than his wife Angelique Demolier. It would appear that Jean McKay was 32 years older than Archange Martel. If it did eventually turn out that Yvonne's Jean McKay was a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier, which is looking highly unlikely, Marie-Anne Demolier who lived in Les Eboulements would be his aunt. It would have made sense he might have lived with his aunt until he got married to Archange Martel who also was from Les Eboulements. In the meantime, I have contacted Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc to find out more about the Trading Post de la Malbaie and the Jean (Frederic) Mainckey of Quebec City. Will let you know if she replies. Have a great day/night. Reg.
7 January 2014
On Jan 7, 2014, at 9:21 PM, Reg McCaie wrote:
Google.com Search:
Arbre de Archange Martel - Mes Arbres
or
mes-arbres.net/genealogie/...genealogie/martel_ar...
Joseph Jean John McKay is listed as being born between 1762-1793.
Does she know something we do not?
7 January 2014
Hello again. Did a quick search on FamilySearch.Org for a John MacKay/McCay/McKie for Orkney and found nothing. Also checked for Inverness and no match was found but I did scan Aberdeenshire and the following appeared which might be your Jean MacKay:
John MacKay
Christening: 20 October 1761
Keithhall and Kinkell, Aberdeen, Scotland.
Father: John MacKay
Mother: Margaret Reid
I forgot to mention in my last e-mail that I had sent Nataly Brisson the extensive info on John MacKay you had sent me several months ago. After reading it she was still not convinced that your John was born in 1761 maintaining that all references to his age were wrong from the start. Have a great day. Reg.
9 January 2014
It might be a good idea to follow up on the lead if this person is still living. From personal experience I find they often don't reply or have passed on. Even though Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc was a little off on the Jean Mainckey, she got me thinking about the "Maquet" part of it. Might your Jean McKay have been baptized with the name Jean Maquet? Also why would your Jean McKay name a girl Alexandrienne? That name is very uncommon/rare in French culture. Some of his children were named after the Martels but what about the others? If your Jean had been born around 1781, and were the son Alexander MacKay, he would not have known him because Alexander (Sr.) died circa 1780. Rene (Ranald/Randall/Randy) McDonnell/McDonald would have been his stand-in father. Rene McDonnell on several occasions traveled from New Carlisle to Quebec City. Supposing Jean McKay were a stepson, might he have brought Jean to see his aunt Marianne Demolier in Les Eboulements? I wish my grandfather was still alive to tell us more. Have a great day. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Geneology of Elisa Bouchard
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:55:53 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
If she does, she did not put it on the website Google.com Arbre de Archange Martel - Mes Arbres. I noted only that the marriage date differed by 10 days from the 22/4/1806 that I have, but the remainder is the same. When I switch to Jean John Joseph McKay she has no parents or birth location for Jean; only 1762 (which is close by the three sources I sent you) to 1793 (which is not). Bouchard is the family she is researching and I doubt she put much effort into locating Jean's parentage.
I will follow up-thanks for the lead.
Dave
Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc sent me an e-mail today telling me she has sent all her information to you. I will translate what she has told me:"The Trading Post de la Malbaie was in operation for a period of three (3) years prior to the wedding of John/Jean MacKay. There was a large recrutement of Scots from the Orkney Islands during this period for activities relating to the operation of the Trading Post such as clearing woodlots, construction, and fishing. That basically is all I was able to find. There were no ledgers of names kept for the many ships arriving in Quebec with many immigrant workers from Scotland who, at this period in time, were leaving a country of famine and great misery. In regards to Jean "Mainckey" of Quebec City (1787), I believe (but not 100% sure) he is the son of Etienne who was a son of Benjamin who married an aboriginal women. It could also be a "Maquet" family from France, and if I remember correctly, the priest transcribed the family name into English. I no longer am subscribed to Drouin; therefore, I cannot verify with certainty". ®4162
17 January 2014
Good afternoon Dave. I have to admit in regards to your quest for Jean/John McKay, it has been quite a "Roller Coaster Ride". When I first found him listed last year in Diane Perron-Latour's website, I thought for sure he was a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier. When I noticed on-line that you were looking for John's parents, I immediately contacted you. You were very happy at first thinking you had finally broken the wall after many years of search.
The first person to doubt this finding was genealogist Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc. She had found a death certificate for their first Jean MacKay who had died in August of 1773. In her mind there was no other baptismal certificate to be found for another Jean MacKay born to them. I wrote back to Diane Perron-Latour and she eventually added "it still needed to be proven by baptismal proof" (in French) on her web site. I even disliked writing back to you and telling you that Marianne might be right. The evidence you had amounted also suggested she might be right (i.e. In 1806, a 45 year old farmer....,etc.).
The next genealogist who doubted Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc's suggestions and your sources was Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord. She claimed to have seen numerous cases in the Baie-St.-Paul area where the priest inaccurately entered the age of a person's death in the parish register. With all these up and downs or uncertainties, I had to think a lot about the interview I had with my grandfather Henri McCaie many years ago.
I remember I had asked him if Alexandre (Jr.) had any brothers. He replied there had been two (2) Jean born. The first one before Alexandre (Jr.) had died at a very young age and another, after Alexander (Jr.), had been been given the same name. At first, I remember telling you I thought he had said something about the second one being born in the United States but the more I think about that the more I believe it is our Scottish ancestor Alexander MacKay (Sr.) who died there. Might have he re-enlisted in the war (American Revolution)? That is another search for another time.
When I asked him further about this 2nd Jean MacKay he said the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul, Quebec, were the same MacKays as us - that we were related. Henri stated that this second Jean had married an Archange Martel. He went on to list all the names of their children. The one that stuck in my mind at the time was Macrine because it sounded like macaroon. He said her full name was Marie-Macorine McKay. Even my grandfather thought it was a strange sounding name to give someone.
As he tried to remember as many of the other McKays as he could he stated there was another Jean or Johnny McKay. By then, I remember being a little confused. "Three Jean's", I thought! And then he mentioned his third cousin Purissima McKay who was Johnny's daughter. She, he went on to say , was a nurse living in the Montreal area married to a Hector Goulet who was distantly related to the singer/actor Robert Goulet.
Had he met Purissima before? The answer is yes. It just dawned on me that I had also met her. I had gone to visit my grandparents one Saturday afternoon years ago. When I arrived my grandfather introduced me to her as his third "McKay" cousin from Montreal. She apparently had arrived on Thursday morning of that week and was on her way back to Montreal in a few hours. They had allowed her to stay at their home for three days. If I remember correctly she said she lived near or not too far away from the Oratoire St.-Joseph in Montreal. I am presuming she might have been around 65 years of age at that time.
So there it is Dave. Sounds to me like you did translate your sources correctly but the person or persons who initially wrote them down in French (pertaining to Jean/John McKay's age) seem to have gotten them wrong by about twenty years including the priest in Baie-St.-Paul. I am convinced that Jean McKay left New Carlisle at a young age to go live with his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier in Les Eboulements. That is where he met his future wife Archange Martel who, as you know, was also from Les Eboulements.
In all likelihood Marie-Anne Demolier is probably the one who taught him how to write his name. Alexander McKay (Jr.) did not know how to write but his mother and father did. Also, let us not forget the early 1790 New Carlisle Census that list the household of Ranald McDonell as having eight (8) persons two (2) of whom are listed as sons. Ranald McDonell had no sons with his first wife or Angelique Demolier.
The above is enough to convince me again that Jean McKay is a brother of Alexandre McKay (Jr.). I suspect his baptismal entry is so badly written that it is undecipherable. My best guess estimate for his year of birth is 1781, at the latest. A review of the Catholic Register of Quebec City or a DNA test is probably the only other way for you to be 100% sure. Have a great day. Reg. ®4162
21 January 2014
Good morning Dave. First let me start by thanking you for all the information you sent me. You certainly have done a wonderful job in detailing your research throughout the years. Yvonne translated Jean MacKay's death certificate without error. Did I not also translate his death certificate? I remember looking for info on Father B.B. Decoigne.
Before I get into some additions/thoughts of my own, we should ask ourselves the following questions: How many MacKays settled in the Province of Quebec from 1763 to, let us say, 1806? And who might they be?
After having researched this topic many times, as I'm sure you have also, we can find them mostly in the following places: Montreal area (particularly in St. -Eustache), Quebec City Area (which also includes Baie-St.-Paul), and the New Carlisle Area.
Also/or, who might be the first MacKay progenitors in Quebec? The first ones that come to mind are Bridget Kopetsky's Francis MacKay and his brother Samuel MacKay. If I remember correctly Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc's husband is distantly related to Samuel MacKay through his mother. A friend of mine in high school was also a descendant of Samuel MacKay because his mother was a MacKay from Montreal.
The next one that comes to light is my ancestor Alexander MacKay who settled in Quebec City and whose family later moved to New Carlisle. There appears to have been another Alexander McKay who was a Royal Highland Regiment soldier that married, had several children, but who died very early. I haven't found any of his descendants in Quebec. There also was a John MacKay, a Fraser's Highlanders, who was disbanded in Quebec, settled in Trois-Rivieres, but died later leaving no descendants. There also was another Alexander McKay in Quebec City who had a son John who both arrived as Scottish immigrants circa 1790's. And let us not forget Sergeant Donald MacKay, a Fraser's Highlanders, who also had a son Alexander who worked for the Hudson Bay Company. Most of their descendants can be found in Manitoba.
Then we have your Jean MacKay which brings me back to your mention of him as being from Scotland by his son Louis in the St.-Fulgence Census. You say that claim is "suspect" because Louis was seven (7) years old when his father Jean MacKay died. I also find that claim speculative. So, if Jean MacKay would not be from Scotland which of the above Scottish progenitors would be his father? I think we could eliminate most of them except one which would have to be Alexander MacKay who married Angelique Demolier.
Louis MacKay may have initially heard that Jean's father was from Scotland and in later years assumed that Jean also was born in Scotland. If we speculate that Jean MacKay was born in 1781, is a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) who died in 1780/81 whose family moved to New Carlisle at a young age, does it not stand to reason that Jean McKay never knew his biological father.
Jean McKay probably moved away from New Carlisle around 19 or 20 years of age to go work/live with his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier in Les Eboulements. That is where he eventually met his future wife Archange Martel and was married with the name Jean not John. Life in New Carlisle was hard enough in those days that one would have wanted to leave to go seek greener pastures. Louis MacKay, when asked by the enumerators, may have thought since Alexander MacKay was born in Scotland so was Jean.
The primary source for Jean MacKay's age may have been misprinted from the start which was copied by all other sources (i.e. 1761 instead of 1781, and married at 45 instead of 25, and died at 71 instead of 51). I'm sure Marie-Anne Demolier who lived in Les Eboulements knew Jean MacKay and Archange Martel. I had later figured, on second thoughts as you know, that she might have passed down her aquaintance about them to our family but my grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many details about Jean MacKay, Baie-St.-Paul, Purissima McKay, etc. for it to be just an acquaintance.
By reading the text you sent me jarred another memory. Henri McCaie had said that Jean-Baptiste McKay had gotten in touch with Louis MacKay after Alexander MacKay (Jr.) died in 1857. It apparently had to do with land in New Carlisle that belonged to Jean MacKay as part of an inheritance which was being given to Louis but Louis didn't want it so it was sold and the money split among Alexander's children. Is there not mention in your text of a reminiscence of a property in Scotland that no one bothered with? I think the property in question is the one in New Carlisle that was bequeathed to Jean by Alexander MacKay (Sr.) of Scotland. I might ask other family members if there might be a picture of Henri McCaie with Purissima McKay. I still remember her last words to me when she visited Henri McCaie around 1965. She had said: "If you and your father ever visit Montreal please come and see me. There are so few of us McKays left". Have a great day. Reg.
P.S. Oddly enough, I did find yesterday a site which indicates that Jean MacKay was baptized in Notre-Dame de Quebec. They don't give an exact date but maybe they know something. See: (Google.com) Page de la Nazaire Bouchard/Alexandrine McKay (F2379): Qui sont... ®4162
21 January 2014
Hello again Dave. I know you've had your fill going in circles with this Jean McKay and you want to pursue the Moody line which is understandable. I believe Michel is Blais. I will take your word that he died on the 13th and was buried on the 14th. Quick wake/funeral. We had the same problem with our Jean-Baptiste McKay when he was buried on 24 November 1869. It reads : "decede l'avant-veillee" which translates into English as "who died on the previous night of the previous day" which means he actually died on 22 November. If your case is similar it means Jean may have actually died on the 12th. The pesky circa 1761 birth date is really a thorn. We might find his baptismal entry some day. As I was reviewing his marriage to Archange Martel, I noticed one of the people mentioned is Augustin Tremblay. Might this be none other than Louis-Roch-Augustin Tremblay husband of Marie-Anne Demolier? This would be Jean MacKay's uncle if this were the case. If you do find any descendants for George McKay let me know. Again, have a great day. Reg. P.S. French is a hard language. I even have trouble with the many exceptions to the rule. ®4162
22 January 2014
Thanks a million for sending the Moody Genealogies. They are really impressive. I just would like to make a few final comments regarding Jean MacKay. For starters, Jean MacKay died on 12 January according to Genealogy of Canada. He died on the 12th, was probably viewed on the 13th, and buried on the 14th.
The sources regarding his age that you have listed all claim that he was born "circa" 1761. Since they do not have a baptismal record, how did they come up with this date? What primary source contributed to the approximation of his birth year? The answer has to be his burial record which states he died at 71 years of age. From there, Talbot and others, all assumed Jean MacKay was more or less born around 1761, and that he was a 45 year old farmer in 1806.
As you already know, Father B.B. Decoigne is the one who filled in the information in the Register after his burial. Might have he jotted a "51" on a piece of paper before the funeral which ended up as a "71" (soixante-onze) in the Baie-St.-Paul Register?
Nataly Brisson does not buy that he was 45 when he was married and is doubtful about his age of "71" at death. So am I. You are correct when you say Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc didn't find another baptismal record for another Jean Mackay; however, that does not mean that one does not exist. Remember when she thought she had found one when it turned out to be John McNeil of La Malbaie.
When and if we ever find one might take a few more years to solve. In the meantime, I trust my grandfather Henri McCaie's "oral" statement that indeed he was a son and not a nephew of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
23 January 2014
As for "Dufrene", with an "accent aigu", is probably correct. To be absolutely sure, just check Genealogy of Canada/"Nos Origines" to see how they spell that family name. Alexander MacKay (Sr.) may have died in 1781, or even as late as 1782, the year Angelique Demolier remarried Ranald MacDonnell/MacDonald. Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc believes this 2nd marriage was an arranged marriage of sort so that Angelique would not be left to fend by herself. Ranald MacDonald was also Alexander's bestman/witness when he was married in 1772. My suspect is that Talbot published his findings way after 1832 using B.B. Decoigne's "soixante-onze" (71) "ans" as his reference point for him being a 45 year old farmer in 1806. Unless second Jean was born outside of Quebec, which I am now doubtful, the baptismal entry would have to be in Quebec City. Either it is ineligible, lost, or he was baptized under another family name by mistake. I've already checked for a Jean McDonald with no luck. As for Georges McKay who married Adele Simard there does not appear to be any children. Another genealogist (Bob St.-Gelais), whose father originally was from Baie-St.-Paul, said: "If you find any children please let me know because I've never found any". So much for a DNA test. Frere Eloi-Gerad Talbot, genealogist, born 1899 died 1976. He obviously used B.B. Decoigne's "71" ans as his reference point to claim he was a 45 year old farmer in 1806. Looks like Father Decoigne is the one who may have made the mistake. Of course he could have asked Jean's children when his parents were married. They may have answered sometimes around 1771, got the facts confused and he wrote down that Jean died at 71 years of age. Anything is possible. Reg.
1. Jean-Baptiste McKay ..............(1st cousin of:)...........................Louis McKay
2. Francois-Xavier McKay...........(2nd cousin of:)..........................Louise McKay
3. Henri McCaie............................(3rd cousin of:).......................... Lapointe x Anderson
4. Reg. H. McCaie .......................(4th cousin of :)...........................Yvonne x Moody
5. Reg. J. McCaie.........................(5th cousin of:)............................Moody children
Surprisingly "Nos Origines" also has some information about some of his children. However, we should ask ourselves, according to "Nos Origines": was he born in 1760 or 61, and did he die at 71 or 72, also was Archange 13 or 14 when she married? They obviously copied and printed some errors. I still think, in the end, it all boils down to B.B. Decoigne then to all other sources which were copied from the first. My grandfather was not a highly educated man but had a memory like an elephant. When it came to family history he could remember stuff most people had forgotten. I remember he had told me that Rose Arsenault, Jean-Baptiste McKay's grandmother, had a Portuguese great-grandfather. He didn't know his name but many years later when tracing my family tree, for the fun of it, I decided to see if this was true. And yes it was. His name was Manuel Miranda from the Azores. So the fact that Henri said that Alexander (Sr.) had two (2) Jean's, and that Purissima McKay's husband was distantly related to Robert Goulet does not surprise me. I'm going to try and check the Quebec City Register on FamilySearch.Org. ®4162
23 January 2014
"Nos Origines" also has some information about some of his children. However, we should ask ourselves, according to "Nos Origines": was he born in 1760 or 61, and did he die at 71 or 72, also was Archange 13 or 14 when she married? They obviously copied and printed some errors. I still think, in the end, it all boils down to B.B. Decoigne then to all other sources which were copied from the first. My grandfather was not a highly educated man but had a memory like an elephant. When it came to family history he could remember stuff most people had forgotten. I remember he had told me that Rose Arsenault, Jean-Baptiste McKay's grandmother, had a Portuguese great-grandfather. He didn't know his name but many years later when tracing my family tree, for the fun of it, I decided to see if this was true. And yes it was. His name was Manuel Miranda from the Azores. So the fact that Henri said that Alexander (Sr.) had two (2) Jean's, and that Purissima McKay's husband was distantly related to Robert Goulet does not surprise me. She married Hector Goulet, son of Joseph-Alfred Goulet and Mary Loiselle. Purissima was born 3 Nov 1998 and died in 1998. Some memory Henri had. ®4162
24 January 2014
When Jean MacKay died, Father B.B. Decoigne in the register of Baie-St.-Paul (see LDS page 90 of BSP Register) says he was "soixante-onze ans" (71) years of age. If there is a third genealogist who has worked on this pedigree it would be interesting and usefull. I suspect the person who gave "Nos Origines" the information made a mistake or two. As you know in genealogy it is easy to print wrong dates. Ironically "Nos Origines" has a contact phone number listed for Shediac Bridge, New Brunswick, which is about 20 miles from Moncton. I'll try contacting them to see what they say about who supplied the information for Jean McKay. I've tried looking for a Baptismal Certificate in the Quebec City Registers through FamilySearch.Org. It is rather difficult in getting the screen to come up at times. If I find something "unreadable" I will let you know. I know my grandfather was not wrong about there being two Jean. On the other hand a quick search for all of Scotland only brings up six (6) John McKay born from 1760/61. Given that Jean McKay was married with the name Jean and not John leads me to believe he was baptized with Jean and not John. In the end it could be the priest just forgot to enter his baptismal entry because of some other emergency. ®4162
24 January 2014
I definitely think the second Jean is Yvonne's Jean. I do not have any other candidate in mind but her's. As I said before my best guess estimate for his year of birth is 1781. As we look at the pattern of births in Alexander Sr.'s family they seem to be spaced two (2) years apart. We see the first Jean was born in 1772 and he died in 1773, Alexander (Jr.) was born in 1775, Marie-Angelique McKay was born in 1777. It would look like as if the next one should have been born in 1779 (which could have been a stillbirth), followed by the last one at 1781. There is definitely room for speculation from 1778 up to 1781. I seem to remember my grandfather saying they had five (5) children but they lost two (2).
We know for sure Alexander MacKay Sr. was still alive in 1778 because he petitioned the Crown from Berthier (sur-Mer) for a Land Grant for a parcel of land in New Carlisle, Quebec. We know Angelique Demolier remarried in 1782 to Ranald McDonnell. Might the second Jean have been baptized in Berthier?
I believe Alexander MacKay Sr. was employed as a Clerk-Merchant-Vendor by Lord Cuthbert who owned both Berthiers commonly known then as Berthier-en-Bas and Berthier-en-Haut. In his Land Petition of 1778 Alexander (Sr.) said he was a Clerk-Merchant-Vendor. Lord Cuthbert is a descendant of the famous Cuthberts of Castlehill from Inverness, Scotland. Alexander MacKay (Sr.) was also born in the Castlehill area of Inverness. They must have previously known each other in Scotland. Now, if we look at what Henri McCaie said about 2nd Jean MacKay, we get a clearer picture that it is indeed Yvonne's Jean:
1. Henri McCaie said Alexander (Jr.) had two (2) Jean as brothers. The first one died very young and a second one was born later after Alexander (Jr.) and renamed Jean.
2. Henri McCaie said the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul were the same MacKays as us. He said Jean (the second) MacKay had married an Archange Martel. Henri knew the names of all of Jean and Archange's children. How would he have known this if he were not related?
3. Henri McCaie said that his grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay had contacted his cousin Louis MacKay in Baie-St.-Paul after the death of his father Alexander McKay (Jr.) about a property in New Carlisle Louis had inherited but Louis said he didn't want it. The property was sold and divided among Alexander McKay (Jr.)'s children.
4. Henri McCaie introduced me to his third cousin Purissima McKay from Montreal. He said she was married to Hector Goulet and that Hector was distantly related to singer/actor Robert Goulet. A few weeks ago I checked it out to make sure this was accurate. As it turned out after nine generations they have the same ancestor who is Jacques Goulet married to Marguerite Mulier. That is all I can remember about the MacKays of Baie-St.-Paul which Henri McCaie told me years ago. I suspect Jean (2nd) MacKay was baptized but the baptismal record was never recorded. I suppose I am the last person who remembers any of this stuff. After I go there will be no one else to tell anyone of these historical accounts. I hope this helps. Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
28 January 2014
Yvonne's Jean MacKay "is" Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier'd 2nd Jean Joseph MacKay. 2nd Jean MacKay is Alexander MacKay (Jr.)'s brother. My grandfather had said that Jean did not get along with his family. That is why he left at a young age and headed for Les Eboulements. He knew his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier lived there. I would not be surprised that he got his first job as a farmer/handyman for the Martels. When was he born? Well, that again is all speculative. He could have been born in 1776, 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781, and might even have been born in 1782 the year Angelique Demolier remarried. I still think he was probably born around 1781. His baptismal record is either non-existant or inelligible. We do not have a specific death date for Alexander MacKay (Sr.). It is only an approximation that he died around 1780. He was still alive in 1778. The Holy Trinity Anglican Church Records are incomplete. If Alexander MacKay (Sr.) re-enlisted for military service he may have died in the United States. Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc had also found evidence that he was a military "pilote" meaning someone who guided boats and ships on treacherous waterways. If you ever do find a baptismal record please let me know. Trying to navigate through FamilySearch.Org. is very hard on the eyes. Diane Perron-Latour most likely received her information from Raoul Girard who died in 1996 and several genealogists. I think that is why she could not give me any specifics as to where the information came from that Jean MacKay was a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. I still think it may have been passed down originally from Alexandrine McKay who was older than Louis. I would be more than willing to trace Florence McKay's line (born 1810); however, I noticed it is longer than Alexandrine's line and probably would not give much more in information. The last male born in that line is Marc-Anthony-Pierre Barette. He lives in Mississauga, Ontario. ®4162
4 February 2014
The first documented source for the birth of Jean McKay around 1761 has to be the "Dictionnaire Genealogique Drouin" founded in 1899. They obviously used Jean MacKay's age of death recorded by Father B.B. Decoigne who states his age of death at "soixante-onze ans" (71) seventy one years of age: 1832-71 = 1761.
The next source to document Jean MacKay's age was Quebec genealogist Frere Eloi-Gerard Talbot born in 1899. He states that in 1806, Jean MacKay was a 45 year old farmer. How did he deduce his age? He probably used both Drouin and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded entry for Jean being 71 years of age upon death: 1761-1806 = 45 years of age (when Jean married Archange Martel).
The next source to mention Jean MacKay has to be Alain Anctil Tremblay and Chantal Gravel in their publication: "Les Grandes Familles des Eboulements et de Saint-Joseph-de-la -Rive 1733-2003/1931-2003". It was published either in 2003 or 2004. I am sure they must have looked at Jean MacKay's wedding entry in 1806, Drouin, Talbot, and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded death entry for Jean MacKay in Les Registres de Baie-St.-Paul.
As I have previously stated, Quebec genealogist Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord is very doubtful that Jean MacKay died at 71 years of age. Other genealogists have also had similar concerns regarding Jean MacKay. Brisson says she has seen numerous instances where the priest entered the wrong age upon a person's death. She believes the priest most likely entered the wrong age in Jean MacKay's case. I also firmly believe that is what happened in the case of Jean MacKay. It is the only logical conclusion. My grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many small details about the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul for it to have been a case of mistaken identity. At some point in time my great-great-grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay must have met his first cousins in Baie-St.-Paul or elsewhere for my grandfather to know so much about them. The fact that Purissima McKay visited her 3rd cousin Henri McCaie in Moncton around 1965 tells me we are talking about the same MacKay family for sure. What more can I say? Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
7 April 2015
“Hello again! In regards to your wife's Jean MacKay, might he be an illegitimate son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) or even a legitimate son from a previous first marriage? We really don't know much about Alexander MacKay (Sr.) from 1763 to 1771. He could have easily been first married around 1760, in Quebec City, at the Quebec Garrison Church, only to remarry again a widower, in 1772, at Metropolitan Anglican. It may sound a little far fetched but not all that unusual. If not this scenario, Jean MacKay was probably a nephew of Alexander MacKay (Sr.). There has to be a clue somewhere. I've surfed the net and haven't found anything newer than your info. I wish we could find something more concrete. In the meantime, have a great afternoon. Reg.” ®4162
25 June 2015
Hello Dave,
I was briefing again through the 78thfrasers.org website and was wondering if the following John McKay might actually be your "brick wall" and a brother or nephew of Alexander McKay:
McKay, John, Soldier, (78th) (Capt. Alexander Campell's Co.); JHR 95, disbanded in Canada, 124.
McKay, Alexander, Sgt., (78th) (Captain Hugh Fraser's Co.); JHR 95, disbanded in Canada, 125.
John definitely would have been born in Scotland, as Louis McKay stated in the St.-Fulgeance Census, but most likely would have been born before 1761. Strange as it may sound, Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc has stated in the past that some of the soldiers of the Fraser Highlanders were as young as 12 years old! The year 1757 - 12 = a birth of about 1745 which means your Jean would have been 87 when he died in 1832. It also means he would have been disbanded at around the age of 18 giving him plenty of time to learn French before he later married Archange Martel at 61 years of age. Something to ponder about. Have a great day. Reg. P.S. The John McKay who settled in Trois-Rivieres might not have been from the 78th but another regiment.
Strathnaver is a region in the Highlands of northern western Scotland. It is the Strath or big valley created by the Naver river. The City of Tongue is located in Strathnaver, and is the traditional clan seat of the MacKay clan. Strathnaver runs for some 17 miles, south along the River Naver from the north coast at Bettyhill, then south west along Loch Naver to Altnaharra. Driving the single track "B" road that runs along it is a slightly spooky experience for anyone with a sense of history.
“Bonnie Prince Charlie’s” (Prince Charles Edward Stuart) Jacobite army was defeated in it’s attempt to overthrow the Hanoverian usurper, George II at Culloden on 16 April 1746. This was the turning point in Highland history as severe oppressive measures were enacted following the battle. An Act was passed banning the wearing of tartan, the playing of pipes and the carrying of arms. The ties of kinship between the Clan Chief and the people were severed and a way of life was extinguished. From then on chiefs assumed the role of feudal landlords, and the land, once held for the people, became the chief’s private property. When sheep were found to thrive profitably on the land, the people became a hindrance and, as a result, were removed. The evictions, or so-called Clearances, began in the 1760s. Some were achieved quite peacefully through financial incentives, but increasingly they were enforced through violence and burning, the most notorious taking place on the Duke of Sutherland’s estate in 1814. In the 1860s, by which time Queen Victoria had made the Highlands popular, the inland glens were as empty as they are today.
"The consternation and confusion were extreme. Little or no time was given for the removal of persons or property; the people striving to remove the sick and the helpless before the fire should reach them; next, struggling to save the most valuable of their effects. The cries of the women and children, the roaring of the affrighted cattle, hunted at the same time by the yelling dogs of the shepherds amid the smoke and fire, altogether presented a scene that completely baffles description, it required to be seen to be believed." "A dense cloud of smoke enveloped the whole country by day, and even extended far out to sea. At night an awfully grand but terrific scene presented itself — all the houses in an extensive district in flames at once. I myself ascended a height about eleven o'clock in the evening, and counted two hundred and fifty blazing houses, many of the owners of which I personally knew, but whose present condition — whether in or out of the flames — I could not tell. The conflagration lasted six days, till the whole of the dwellings were reduced to ashes or smoking ruins."
This could be a report of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in the 1990s. But it's actually an account by Donald Macleod, a native of Rosal, of the first Strathnaver clearances in 1814, the "year of the burning". In all, as many as 15,000 people were cleared from the 1.5 million acre estate of the Duke of Stafford (later made the Duke of Sutherland) in the years 1809-33: all to increase the income from the land by letting it to sheep farmers.
The initial 1814 clearances were undertaken by the Estate Factor, Patrick Sellar, who recorded a slightly different view of what happened: "Lord and Lady Stafford were pleased humanely to order the new arrangement of this country. That the interior should be possessed by Cheviot shepherds, and the people brought down to the coast and placed in lots of less than three acres, sufficient for the maintenance of an industrious family, pinched enough to cause them to turn their attention to the fishing. A most benevolent action, to put these barbarous Highlanders into a position where they could better associate together, apply themselves to industry, educate their children, and advance in civilisation."
As a result of his 1814 actions in Strathnaver, Sellar stood trial in April 1816 in Inverness on a range of charges including culpable homicide and fire raising. He was acquitted: clearly Sellar's view of the rights of "barbarous Highlanders" was shared by the judicial establishment of the day...
The most northerly and nearest single malt distillery to Strathnaver is Pulteney Distillery Co., Wick, Scotland KW1 5BA www.oldpulteney.com
Ancestry.co.uk “Scottish Settlers in North America 1625-1825 Vol. 1” ®4167
MCKAY, JOHN. A child aged between 2 and 8. Emigrated from Loch Broom, Ross-shire to Pictou, Nova Scotia on the Hector 1773 with father John, mother Mary and Margaret and Ann, age 2. (PB)
Settled Schubenacadie, N. S. (SHA) ®4167
McKay, JOHN Piper. From Loch Broom to N. S. on the Hector, July 1773. Settled Pictou, N. S. (SHA) ®4167
MCKAY, JOHN. Tenant. Ardnafouran, Arisaig, Invernessshire. Emigrated from Arisaig to Quebec on the British Queen on 16 August 1790 (PACAN) ®4167
Ancestry.co.uk “Scottish Soldiers in Colonial America” Parts 2 and 3 ®4168
MCKAY, JOHN. soldier of the Black Watch, land grant by Nashwaak River, New Brunswick, 1785 [PANB:MC315]
MCKAY, JOHN, [1],[2],[4], a soldier of Captain Alexander Campbell’s Company of the 78th [Fraser’s Highlanders] Regiment, discharged in Canada in October 1763. [PAC.R/G4.C2.Vol.1] ®4168
Public Archives of Canada
Scottish soldiers of the Fraser's Highlanders in particular were known for being much older than their brides some as much as 30 years older. My grandfather had told us that our Scottish ancestor was much older that his wife which turned out to be true. Ironically, one of Angelique Demolier's great-grandmother "Marie Quinquenelle" was also a "Fille du roi 1641-". Quite honestly, I've never received a reply from Diane Perron-Latour as to where or from whom she received the information stating your Jean MacKay was a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. Unless her source was "oral" and from someone that may have died, she has not come clean to explain herself. It would be nice to know for sure. If he were a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier he would have been born way after Alexander (Jr.) maybe around 1781. That would put Jean's age of marriage at 25 and his death at 52. That might be more palatable for Nataly...If not, did John/Jean MacKay leave Inverness by boat to the Orkney Islands before heading to Quebec? "Maquet" is a French family name like Paquet, etc. I believe it is the French version/translation of the MacKay family name in France. If you dig up something new, let me know. A la prochaine/later. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Alexander Mackay (Sr.)
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 18:06:14 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
Thanks for the information about the Trading Post and Marianne's comments.
It would be nice if Nataly Brisson had something positive to offer. Why does Jean have to be younger than 45 to marry a woman 32 years his junior, especially when Alexander married Angelique who was 26 years his junior. I imagine with the small early population there were not a lot of women of marrying age, and many older women died of childbirth. Yvonne's 8th GGrandmother was one of the 768 "Filles du Roi” or Founding Mothers of New France who came to Canada in 1670 at about age 17, and most were married within the year, mostly to older men.
You say "it would appear that your sources are correct". If you have personally verified my translations of the 3 sources, you could send them to Nataly to refute, if she can.
I misspoke about Jean possibly being a brother to Alexander, Sr. From his probable birth date of 1761 he more likely would have been a contemporary to Alexander, Jr, born in 1775 in Quebec. Moreover, I assume from your comment below that that is unlikely he was a brother to Alexander, Jr., as you would have discovered Jean while researching the children of Alexander Sr.
As the Trading Post was operating by about 1803, Jean at age 42 being sent from somewhere to run it makes Marianne's thesis very possible.
By the way, what is a "Maquet" family?
Thanks for everything.
On Jan 5, 2014, at 5:19 PM, Reg McCaie wrote:
Got your message. It would appear that your sources are correct. A Quebec genealogist who has refuted some of those claims in the past is Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord. I've had trouble with her before trying to convince her otherwise. She believes because Jean McKay was 45 when he married 13 year old Archange Martel something just does not add up. She claims she has seen several instances in Parish Registers with erroneous stated ages to back up her hypothesis on Jean McKay. She firmly believes he was much younger than 45 when he married. She may be right or she may be wrong.
Alexander (William) MacKay (Sr.) was born on 08 September 1724 in the Cassellhill area of the Town of Inverness, Inverness Co., Scotland, the son of William MacKay and Margaret Fraser. So if Yvonne's Jean McKay was born in 1761 he would be 37 years younger than Alexander (Sr.) which is probably unlikely they are brothers. They could be cousins or related in some other way such as nephew, etc. I have not done a thorough search on other siblings of Alexander in Scotland. All I can say is that Alexander MacKay (Sr.) was 26 years older than his wife Angelique Demolier. It would appear that Jean McKay was 32 years older than Archange Martel. If it did eventually turn out that Yvonne's Jean McKay was a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier, which is looking highly unlikely, Marie-Anne Demolier who lived in Les Eboulements would be his aunt. It would have made sense he might have lived with his aunt until he got married to Archange Martel who also was from Les Eboulements. In the meantime, I have contacted Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc to find out more about the Trading Post de la Malbaie and the Jean (Frederic) Mainckey of Quebec City. Will let you know if she replies. Have a great day/night. Reg.
7 January 2014
On Jan 7, 2014, at 9:21 PM, Reg McCaie wrote:
Google.com Search:
Arbre de Archange Martel - Mes Arbres
or
mes-arbres.net/genealogie/...genealogie/martel_ar...
Joseph Jean John McKay is listed as being born between 1762-1793.
Does she know something we do not?
7 January 2014
Hello again. Did a quick search on FamilySearch.Org for a John MacKay/McCay/McKie for Orkney and found nothing. Also checked for Inverness and no match was found but I did scan Aberdeenshire and the following appeared which might be your Jean MacKay:
John MacKay
Christening: 20 October 1761
Keithhall and Kinkell, Aberdeen, Scotland.
Father: John MacKay
Mother: Margaret Reid
I forgot to mention in my last e-mail that I had sent Nataly Brisson the extensive info on John MacKay you had sent me several months ago. After reading it she was still not convinced that your John was born in 1761 maintaining that all references to his age were wrong from the start. Have a great day. Reg.
9 January 2014
It might be a good idea to follow up on the lead if this person is still living. From personal experience I find they often don't reply or have passed on. Even though Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc was a little off on the Jean Mainckey, she got me thinking about the "Maquet" part of it. Might your Jean McKay have been baptized with the name Jean Maquet? Also why would your Jean McKay name a girl Alexandrienne? That name is very uncommon/rare in French culture. Some of his children were named after the Martels but what about the others? If your Jean had been born around 1781, and were the son Alexander MacKay, he would not have known him because Alexander (Sr.) died circa 1780. Rene (Ranald/Randall/Randy) McDonnell/McDonald would have been his stand-in father. Rene McDonnell on several occasions traveled from New Carlisle to Quebec City. Supposing Jean McKay were a stepson, might he have brought Jean to see his aunt Marianne Demolier in Les Eboulements? I wish my grandfather was still alive to tell us more. Have a great day. Reg.
From: deltalimemike@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Geneology of Elisa Bouchard
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014 16:55:53 -0500
To: regmccaie@hotmail.com
If she does, she did not put it on the website Google.com Arbre de Archange Martel - Mes Arbres. I noted only that the marriage date differed by 10 days from the 22/4/1806 that I have, but the remainder is the same. When I switch to Jean John Joseph McKay she has no parents or birth location for Jean; only 1762 (which is close by the three sources I sent you) to 1793 (which is not). Bouchard is the family she is researching and I doubt she put much effort into locating Jean's parentage.
I will follow up-thanks for the lead.
Dave
Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc sent me an e-mail today telling me she has sent all her information to you. I will translate what she has told me:"The Trading Post de la Malbaie was in operation for a period of three (3) years prior to the wedding of John/Jean MacKay. There was a large recrutement of Scots from the Orkney Islands during this period for activities relating to the operation of the Trading Post such as clearing woodlots, construction, and fishing. That basically is all I was able to find. There were no ledgers of names kept for the many ships arriving in Quebec with many immigrant workers from Scotland who, at this period in time, were leaving a country of famine and great misery. In regards to Jean "Mainckey" of Quebec City (1787), I believe (but not 100% sure) he is the son of Etienne who was a son of Benjamin who married an aboriginal women. It could also be a "Maquet" family from France, and if I remember correctly, the priest transcribed the family name into English. I no longer am subscribed to Drouin; therefore, I cannot verify with certainty". ®4162
17 January 2014
Good afternoon Dave. I have to admit in regards to your quest for Jean/John McKay, it has been quite a "Roller Coaster Ride". When I first found him listed last year in Diane Perron-Latour's website, I thought for sure he was a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) and Angelique Demolier. When I noticed on-line that you were looking for John's parents, I immediately contacted you. You were very happy at first thinking you had finally broken the wall after many years of search.
The first person to doubt this finding was genealogist Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc. She had found a death certificate for their first Jean MacKay who had died in August of 1773. In her mind there was no other baptismal certificate to be found for another Jean MacKay born to them. I wrote back to Diane Perron-Latour and she eventually added "it still needed to be proven by baptismal proof" (in French) on her web site. I even disliked writing back to you and telling you that Marianne might be right. The evidence you had amounted also suggested she might be right (i.e. In 1806, a 45 year old farmer....,etc.).
The next genealogist who doubted Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc's suggestions and your sources was Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord. She claimed to have seen numerous cases in the Baie-St.-Paul area where the priest inaccurately entered the age of a person's death in the parish register. With all these up and downs or uncertainties, I had to think a lot about the interview I had with my grandfather Henri McCaie many years ago.
I remember I had asked him if Alexandre (Jr.) had any brothers. He replied there had been two (2) Jean born. The first one before Alexandre (Jr.) had died at a very young age and another, after Alexander (Jr.), had been been given the same name. At first, I remember telling you I thought he had said something about the second one being born in the United States but the more I think about that the more I believe it is our Scottish ancestor Alexander MacKay (Sr.) who died there. Might have he re-enlisted in the war (American Revolution)? That is another search for another time.
When I asked him further about this 2nd Jean MacKay he said the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul, Quebec, were the same MacKays as us - that we were related. Henri stated that this second Jean had married an Archange Martel. He went on to list all the names of their children. The one that stuck in my mind at the time was Macrine because it sounded like macaroon. He said her full name was Marie-Macorine McKay. Even my grandfather thought it was a strange sounding name to give someone.
As he tried to remember as many of the other McKays as he could he stated there was another Jean or Johnny McKay. By then, I remember being a little confused. "Three Jean's", I thought! And then he mentioned his third cousin Purissima McKay who was Johnny's daughter. She, he went on to say , was a nurse living in the Montreal area married to a Hector Goulet who was distantly related to the singer/actor Robert Goulet.
Had he met Purissima before? The answer is yes. It just dawned on me that I had also met her. I had gone to visit my grandparents one Saturday afternoon years ago. When I arrived my grandfather introduced me to her as his third "McKay" cousin from Montreal. She apparently had arrived on Thursday morning of that week and was on her way back to Montreal in a few hours. They had allowed her to stay at their home for three days. If I remember correctly she said she lived near or not too far away from the Oratoire St.-Joseph in Montreal. I am presuming she might have been around 65 years of age at that time.
So there it is Dave. Sounds to me like you did translate your sources correctly but the person or persons who initially wrote them down in French (pertaining to Jean/John McKay's age) seem to have gotten them wrong by about twenty years including the priest in Baie-St.-Paul. I am convinced that Jean McKay left New Carlisle at a young age to go live with his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier in Les Eboulements. That is where he met his future wife Archange Martel who, as you know, was also from Les Eboulements.
In all likelihood Marie-Anne Demolier is probably the one who taught him how to write his name. Alexander McKay (Jr.) did not know how to write but his mother and father did. Also, let us not forget the early 1790 New Carlisle Census that list the household of Ranald McDonell as having eight (8) persons two (2) of whom are listed as sons. Ranald McDonell had no sons with his first wife or Angelique Demolier.
The above is enough to convince me again that Jean McKay is a brother of Alexandre McKay (Jr.). I suspect his baptismal entry is so badly written that it is undecipherable. My best guess estimate for his year of birth is 1781, at the latest. A review of the Catholic Register of Quebec City or a DNA test is probably the only other way for you to be 100% sure. Have a great day. Reg. ®4162
21 January 2014
Good morning Dave. First let me start by thanking you for all the information you sent me. You certainly have done a wonderful job in detailing your research throughout the years. Yvonne translated Jean MacKay's death certificate without error. Did I not also translate his death certificate? I remember looking for info on Father B.B. Decoigne.
Before I get into some additions/thoughts of my own, we should ask ourselves the following questions: How many MacKays settled in the Province of Quebec from 1763 to, let us say, 1806? And who might they be?
After having researched this topic many times, as I'm sure you have also, we can find them mostly in the following places: Montreal area (particularly in St. -Eustache), Quebec City Area (which also includes Baie-St.-Paul), and the New Carlisle Area.
Also/or, who might be the first MacKay progenitors in Quebec? The first ones that come to mind are Bridget Kopetsky's Francis MacKay and his brother Samuel MacKay. If I remember correctly Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc's husband is distantly related to Samuel MacKay through his mother. A friend of mine in high school was also a descendant of Samuel MacKay because his mother was a MacKay from Montreal.
The next one that comes to light is my ancestor Alexander MacKay who settled in Quebec City and whose family later moved to New Carlisle. There appears to have been another Alexander McKay who was a Royal Highland Regiment soldier that married, had several children, but who died very early. I haven't found any of his descendants in Quebec. There also was a John MacKay, a Fraser's Highlanders, who was disbanded in Quebec, settled in Trois-Rivieres, but died later leaving no descendants. There also was another Alexander McKay in Quebec City who had a son John who both arrived as Scottish immigrants circa 1790's. And let us not forget Sergeant Donald MacKay, a Fraser's Highlanders, who also had a son Alexander who worked for the Hudson Bay Company. Most of their descendants can be found in Manitoba.
Then we have your Jean MacKay which brings me back to your mention of him as being from Scotland by his son Louis in the St.-Fulgence Census. You say that claim is "suspect" because Louis was seven (7) years old when his father Jean MacKay died. I also find that claim speculative. So, if Jean MacKay would not be from Scotland which of the above Scottish progenitors would be his father? I think we could eliminate most of them except one which would have to be Alexander MacKay who married Angelique Demolier.
Louis MacKay may have initially heard that Jean's father was from Scotland and in later years assumed that Jean also was born in Scotland. If we speculate that Jean MacKay was born in 1781, is a son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) who died in 1780/81 whose family moved to New Carlisle at a young age, does it not stand to reason that Jean McKay never knew his biological father.
Jean McKay probably moved away from New Carlisle around 19 or 20 years of age to go work/live with his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier in Les Eboulements. That is where he eventually met his future wife Archange Martel and was married with the name Jean not John. Life in New Carlisle was hard enough in those days that one would have wanted to leave to go seek greener pastures. Louis MacKay, when asked by the enumerators, may have thought since Alexander MacKay was born in Scotland so was Jean.
The primary source for Jean MacKay's age may have been misprinted from the start which was copied by all other sources (i.e. 1761 instead of 1781, and married at 45 instead of 25, and died at 71 instead of 51). I'm sure Marie-Anne Demolier who lived in Les Eboulements knew Jean MacKay and Archange Martel. I had later figured, on second thoughts as you know, that she might have passed down her aquaintance about them to our family but my grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many details about Jean MacKay, Baie-St.-Paul, Purissima McKay, etc. for it to be just an acquaintance.
By reading the text you sent me jarred another memory. Henri McCaie had said that Jean-Baptiste McKay had gotten in touch with Louis MacKay after Alexander MacKay (Jr.) died in 1857. It apparently had to do with land in New Carlisle that belonged to Jean MacKay as part of an inheritance which was being given to Louis but Louis didn't want it so it was sold and the money split among Alexander's children. Is there not mention in your text of a reminiscence of a property in Scotland that no one bothered with? I think the property in question is the one in New Carlisle that was bequeathed to Jean by Alexander MacKay (Sr.) of Scotland. I might ask other family members if there might be a picture of Henri McCaie with Purissima McKay. I still remember her last words to me when she visited Henri McCaie around 1965. She had said: "If you and your father ever visit Montreal please come and see me. There are so few of us McKays left". Have a great day. Reg.
P.S. Oddly enough, I did find yesterday a site which indicates that Jean MacKay was baptized in Notre-Dame de Quebec. They don't give an exact date but maybe they know something. See: (Google.com) Page de la Nazaire Bouchard/Alexandrine McKay (F2379): Qui sont... ®4162
21 January 2014
Hello again Dave. I know you've had your fill going in circles with this Jean McKay and you want to pursue the Moody line which is understandable. I believe Michel is Blais. I will take your word that he died on the 13th and was buried on the 14th. Quick wake/funeral. We had the same problem with our Jean-Baptiste McKay when he was buried on 24 November 1869. It reads : "decede l'avant-veillee" which translates into English as "who died on the previous night of the previous day" which means he actually died on 22 November. If your case is similar it means Jean may have actually died on the 12th. The pesky circa 1761 birth date is really a thorn. We might find his baptismal entry some day. As I was reviewing his marriage to Archange Martel, I noticed one of the people mentioned is Augustin Tremblay. Might this be none other than Louis-Roch-Augustin Tremblay husband of Marie-Anne Demolier? This would be Jean MacKay's uncle if this were the case. If you do find any descendants for George McKay let me know. Again, have a great day. Reg. P.S. French is a hard language. I even have trouble with the many exceptions to the rule. ®4162
22 January 2014
Thanks a million for sending the Moody Genealogies. They are really impressive. I just would like to make a few final comments regarding Jean MacKay. For starters, Jean MacKay died on 12 January according to Genealogy of Canada. He died on the 12th, was probably viewed on the 13th, and buried on the 14th.
The sources regarding his age that you have listed all claim that he was born "circa" 1761. Since they do not have a baptismal record, how did they come up with this date? What primary source contributed to the approximation of his birth year? The answer has to be his burial record which states he died at 71 years of age. From there, Talbot and others, all assumed Jean MacKay was more or less born around 1761, and that he was a 45 year old farmer in 1806.
As you already know, Father B.B. Decoigne is the one who filled in the information in the Register after his burial. Might have he jotted a "51" on a piece of paper before the funeral which ended up as a "71" (soixante-onze) in the Baie-St.-Paul Register?
Nataly Brisson does not buy that he was 45 when he was married and is doubtful about his age of "71" at death. So am I. You are correct when you say Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc didn't find another baptismal record for another Jean Mackay; however, that does not mean that one does not exist. Remember when she thought she had found one when it turned out to be John McNeil of La Malbaie.
When and if we ever find one might take a few more years to solve. In the meantime, I trust my grandfather Henri McCaie's "oral" statement that indeed he was a son and not a nephew of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
23 January 2014
As for "Dufrene", with an "accent aigu", is probably correct. To be absolutely sure, just check Genealogy of Canada/"Nos Origines" to see how they spell that family name. Alexander MacKay (Sr.) may have died in 1781, or even as late as 1782, the year Angelique Demolier remarried Ranald MacDonnell/MacDonald. Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc believes this 2nd marriage was an arranged marriage of sort so that Angelique would not be left to fend by herself. Ranald MacDonald was also Alexander's bestman/witness when he was married in 1772. My suspect is that Talbot published his findings way after 1832 using B.B. Decoigne's "soixante-onze" (71) "ans" as his reference point for him being a 45 year old farmer in 1806. Unless second Jean was born outside of Quebec, which I am now doubtful, the baptismal entry would have to be in Quebec City. Either it is ineligible, lost, or he was baptized under another family name by mistake. I've already checked for a Jean McDonald with no luck. As for Georges McKay who married Adele Simard there does not appear to be any children. Another genealogist (Bob St.-Gelais), whose father originally was from Baie-St.-Paul, said: "If you find any children please let me know because I've never found any". So much for a DNA test. Frere Eloi-Gerad Talbot, genealogist, born 1899 died 1976. He obviously used B.B. Decoigne's "71" ans as his reference point to claim he was a 45 year old farmer in 1806. Looks like Father Decoigne is the one who may have made the mistake. Of course he could have asked Jean's children when his parents were married. They may have answered sometimes around 1771, got the facts confused and he wrote down that Jean died at 71 years of age. Anything is possible. Reg.
1. Jean-Baptiste McKay ..............(1st cousin of:)...........................Louis McKay
2. Francois-Xavier McKay...........(2nd cousin of:)..........................Louise McKay
3. Henri McCaie............................(3rd cousin of:).......................... Lapointe x Anderson
4. Reg. H. McCaie .......................(4th cousin of :)...........................Yvonne x Moody
5. Reg. J. McCaie.........................(5th cousin of:)............................Moody children
Surprisingly "Nos Origines" also has some information about some of his children. However, we should ask ourselves, according to "Nos Origines": was he born in 1760 or 61, and did he die at 71 or 72, also was Archange 13 or 14 when she married? They obviously copied and printed some errors. I still think, in the end, it all boils down to B.B. Decoigne then to all other sources which were copied from the first. My grandfather was not a highly educated man but had a memory like an elephant. When it came to family history he could remember stuff most people had forgotten. I remember he had told me that Rose Arsenault, Jean-Baptiste McKay's grandmother, had a Portuguese great-grandfather. He didn't know his name but many years later when tracing my family tree, for the fun of it, I decided to see if this was true. And yes it was. His name was Manuel Miranda from the Azores. So the fact that Henri said that Alexander (Sr.) had two (2) Jean's, and that Purissima McKay's husband was distantly related to Robert Goulet does not surprise me. I'm going to try and check the Quebec City Register on FamilySearch.Org. ®4162
23 January 2014
"Nos Origines" also has some information about some of his children. However, we should ask ourselves, according to "Nos Origines": was he born in 1760 or 61, and did he die at 71 or 72, also was Archange 13 or 14 when she married? They obviously copied and printed some errors. I still think, in the end, it all boils down to B.B. Decoigne then to all other sources which were copied from the first. My grandfather was not a highly educated man but had a memory like an elephant. When it came to family history he could remember stuff most people had forgotten. I remember he had told me that Rose Arsenault, Jean-Baptiste McKay's grandmother, had a Portuguese great-grandfather. He didn't know his name but many years later when tracing my family tree, for the fun of it, I decided to see if this was true. And yes it was. His name was Manuel Miranda from the Azores. So the fact that Henri said that Alexander (Sr.) had two (2) Jean's, and that Purissima McKay's husband was distantly related to Robert Goulet does not surprise me. She married Hector Goulet, son of Joseph-Alfred Goulet and Mary Loiselle. Purissima was born 3 Nov 1998 and died in 1998. Some memory Henri had. ®4162
24 January 2014
When Jean MacKay died, Father B.B. Decoigne in the register of Baie-St.-Paul (see LDS page 90 of BSP Register) says he was "soixante-onze ans" (71) years of age. If there is a third genealogist who has worked on this pedigree it would be interesting and usefull. I suspect the person who gave "Nos Origines" the information made a mistake or two. As you know in genealogy it is easy to print wrong dates. Ironically "Nos Origines" has a contact phone number listed for Shediac Bridge, New Brunswick, which is about 20 miles from Moncton. I'll try contacting them to see what they say about who supplied the information for Jean McKay. I've tried looking for a Baptismal Certificate in the Quebec City Registers through FamilySearch.Org. It is rather difficult in getting the screen to come up at times. If I find something "unreadable" I will let you know. I know my grandfather was not wrong about there being two Jean. On the other hand a quick search for all of Scotland only brings up six (6) John McKay born from 1760/61. Given that Jean McKay was married with the name Jean and not John leads me to believe he was baptized with Jean and not John. In the end it could be the priest just forgot to enter his baptismal entry because of some other emergency. ®4162
24 January 2014
I definitely think the second Jean is Yvonne's Jean. I do not have any other candidate in mind but her's. As I said before my best guess estimate for his year of birth is 1781. As we look at the pattern of births in Alexander Sr.'s family they seem to be spaced two (2) years apart. We see the first Jean was born in 1772 and he died in 1773, Alexander (Jr.) was born in 1775, Marie-Angelique McKay was born in 1777. It would look like as if the next one should have been born in 1779 (which could have been a stillbirth), followed by the last one at 1781. There is definitely room for speculation from 1778 up to 1781. I seem to remember my grandfather saying they had five (5) children but they lost two (2).
We know for sure Alexander MacKay Sr. was still alive in 1778 because he petitioned the Crown from Berthier (sur-Mer) for a Land Grant for a parcel of land in New Carlisle, Quebec. We know Angelique Demolier remarried in 1782 to Ranald McDonnell. Might the second Jean have been baptized in Berthier?
I believe Alexander MacKay Sr. was employed as a Clerk-Merchant-Vendor by Lord Cuthbert who owned both Berthiers commonly known then as Berthier-en-Bas and Berthier-en-Haut. In his Land Petition of 1778 Alexander (Sr.) said he was a Clerk-Merchant-Vendor. Lord Cuthbert is a descendant of the famous Cuthberts of Castlehill from Inverness, Scotland. Alexander MacKay (Sr.) was also born in the Castlehill area of Inverness. They must have previously known each other in Scotland. Now, if we look at what Henri McCaie said about 2nd Jean MacKay, we get a clearer picture that it is indeed Yvonne's Jean:
1. Henri McCaie said Alexander (Jr.) had two (2) Jean as brothers. The first one died very young and a second one was born later after Alexander (Jr.) and renamed Jean.
2. Henri McCaie said the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul were the same MacKays as us. He said Jean (the second) MacKay had married an Archange Martel. Henri knew the names of all of Jean and Archange's children. How would he have known this if he were not related?
3. Henri McCaie said that his grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay had contacted his cousin Louis MacKay in Baie-St.-Paul after the death of his father Alexander McKay (Jr.) about a property in New Carlisle Louis had inherited but Louis said he didn't want it. The property was sold and divided among Alexander McKay (Jr.)'s children.
4. Henri McCaie introduced me to his third cousin Purissima McKay from Montreal. He said she was married to Hector Goulet and that Hector was distantly related to singer/actor Robert Goulet. A few weeks ago I checked it out to make sure this was accurate. As it turned out after nine generations they have the same ancestor who is Jacques Goulet married to Marguerite Mulier. That is all I can remember about the MacKays of Baie-St.-Paul which Henri McCaie told me years ago. I suspect Jean (2nd) MacKay was baptized but the baptismal record was never recorded. I suppose I am the last person who remembers any of this stuff. After I go there will be no one else to tell anyone of these historical accounts. I hope this helps. Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
28 January 2014
Yvonne's Jean MacKay "is" Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier'd 2nd Jean Joseph MacKay. 2nd Jean MacKay is Alexander MacKay (Jr.)'s brother. My grandfather had said that Jean did not get along with his family. That is why he left at a young age and headed for Les Eboulements. He knew his aunt Marie-Anne Demolier lived there. I would not be surprised that he got his first job as a farmer/handyman for the Martels. When was he born? Well, that again is all speculative. He could have been born in 1776, 1778, 1779, 1780, 1781, and might even have been born in 1782 the year Angelique Demolier remarried. I still think he was probably born around 1781. His baptismal record is either non-existant or inelligible. We do not have a specific death date for Alexander MacKay (Sr.). It is only an approximation that he died around 1780. He was still alive in 1778. The Holy Trinity Anglican Church Records are incomplete. If Alexander MacKay (Sr.) re-enlisted for military service he may have died in the United States. Marianne LeClere-LeBlanc had also found evidence that he was a military "pilote" meaning someone who guided boats and ships on treacherous waterways. If you ever do find a baptismal record please let me know. Trying to navigate through FamilySearch.Org. is very hard on the eyes. Diane Perron-Latour most likely received her information from Raoul Girard who died in 1996 and several genealogists. I think that is why she could not give me any specifics as to where the information came from that Jean MacKay was a son of Alexander MacKay and Angelique Demolier. I still think it may have been passed down originally from Alexandrine McKay who was older than Louis. I would be more than willing to trace Florence McKay's line (born 1810); however, I noticed it is longer than Alexandrine's line and probably would not give much more in information. The last male born in that line is Marc-Anthony-Pierre Barette. He lives in Mississauga, Ontario. ®4162
4 February 2014
The first documented source for the birth of Jean McKay around 1761 has to be the "Dictionnaire Genealogique Drouin" founded in 1899. They obviously used Jean MacKay's age of death recorded by Father B.B. Decoigne who states his age of death at "soixante-onze ans" (71) seventy one years of age: 1832-71 = 1761.
The next source to document Jean MacKay's age was Quebec genealogist Frere Eloi-Gerard Talbot born in 1899. He states that in 1806, Jean MacKay was a 45 year old farmer. How did he deduce his age? He probably used both Drouin and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded entry for Jean being 71 years of age upon death: 1761-1806 = 45 years of age (when Jean married Archange Martel).
The next source to mention Jean MacKay has to be Alain Anctil Tremblay and Chantal Gravel in their publication: "Les Grandes Familles des Eboulements et de Saint-Joseph-de-la -Rive 1733-2003/1931-2003". It was published either in 2003 or 2004. I am sure they must have looked at Jean MacKay's wedding entry in 1806, Drouin, Talbot, and Father B.B. Decoigne's recorded death entry for Jean MacKay in Les Registres de Baie-St.-Paul.
As I have previously stated, Quebec genealogist Nataly Brisson from Haute-Cote-Nord is very doubtful that Jean MacKay died at 71 years of age. Other genealogists have also had similar concerns regarding Jean MacKay. Brisson says she has seen numerous instances where the priest entered the wrong age upon a person's death. She believes the priest most likely entered the wrong age in Jean MacKay's case. I also firmly believe that is what happened in the case of Jean MacKay. It is the only logical conclusion. My grandfather Henri McCaie knew too many small details about the MacKays in Baie-St.-Paul for it to have been a case of mistaken identity. At some point in time my great-great-grandfather Jean-Baptiste McKay must have met his first cousins in Baie-St.-Paul or elsewhere for my grandfather to know so much about them. The fact that Purissima McKay visited her 3rd cousin Henri McCaie in Moncton around 1965 tells me we are talking about the same MacKay family for sure. What more can I say? Have a great evening. Reg. ®4162
7 April 2015
“Hello again! In regards to your wife's Jean MacKay, might he be an illegitimate son of Alexander MacKay (Sr.) or even a legitimate son from a previous first marriage? We really don't know much about Alexander MacKay (Sr.) from 1763 to 1771. He could have easily been first married around 1760, in Quebec City, at the Quebec Garrison Church, only to remarry again a widower, in 1772, at Metropolitan Anglican. It may sound a little far fetched but not all that unusual. If not this scenario, Jean MacKay was probably a nephew of Alexander MacKay (Sr.). There has to be a clue somewhere. I've surfed the net and haven't found anything newer than your info. I wish we could find something more concrete. In the meantime, have a great afternoon. Reg.” ®4162
25 June 2015
Hello Dave,
I was briefing again through the 78thfrasers.org website and was wondering if the following John McKay might actually be your "brick wall" and a brother or nephew of Alexander McKay:
McKay, John, Soldier, (78th) (Capt. Alexander Campell's Co.); JHR 95, disbanded in Canada, 124.
McKay, Alexander, Sgt., (78th) (Captain Hugh Fraser's Co.); JHR 95, disbanded in Canada, 125.
John definitely would have been born in Scotland, as Louis McKay stated in the St.-Fulgeance Census, but most likely would have been born before 1761. Strange as it may sound, Marianne Leclere-LeBlanc has stated in the past that some of the soldiers of the Fraser Highlanders were as young as 12 years old! The year 1757 - 12 = a birth of about 1745 which means your Jean would have been 87 when he died in 1832. It also means he would have been disbanded at around the age of 18 giving him plenty of time to learn French before he later married Archange Martel at 61 years of age. Something to ponder about. Have a great day. Reg. P.S. The John McKay who settled in Trois-Rivieres might not have been from the 78th but another regiment.
Strathnaver is a region in the Highlands of northern western Scotland. It is the Strath or big valley created by the Naver river. The City of Tongue is located in Strathnaver, and is the traditional clan seat of the MacKay clan. Strathnaver runs for some 17 miles, south along the River Naver from the north coast at Bettyhill, then south west along Loch Naver to Altnaharra. Driving the single track "B" road that runs along it is a slightly spooky experience for anyone with a sense of history.
“Bonnie Prince Charlie’s” (Prince Charles Edward Stuart) Jacobite army was defeated in it’s attempt to overthrow the Hanoverian usurper, George II at Culloden on 16 April 1746. This was the turning point in Highland history as severe oppressive measures were enacted following the battle. An Act was passed banning the wearing of tartan, the playing of pipes and the carrying of arms. The ties of kinship between the Clan Chief and the people were severed and a way of life was extinguished. From then on chiefs assumed the role of feudal landlords, and the land, once held for the people, became the chief’s private property. When sheep were found to thrive profitably on the land, the people became a hindrance and, as a result, were removed. The evictions, or so-called Clearances, began in the 1760s. Some were achieved quite peacefully through financial incentives, but increasingly they were enforced through violence and burning, the most notorious taking place on the Duke of Sutherland’s estate in 1814. In the 1860s, by which time Queen Victoria had made the Highlands popular, the inland glens were as empty as they are today.
"The consternation and confusion were extreme. Little or no time was given for the removal of persons or property; the people striving to remove the sick and the helpless before the fire should reach them; next, struggling to save the most valuable of their effects. The cries of the women and children, the roaring of the affrighted cattle, hunted at the same time by the yelling dogs of the shepherds amid the smoke and fire, altogether presented a scene that completely baffles description, it required to be seen to be believed." "A dense cloud of smoke enveloped the whole country by day, and even extended far out to sea. At night an awfully grand but terrific scene presented itself — all the houses in an extensive district in flames at once. I myself ascended a height about eleven o'clock in the evening, and counted two hundred and fifty blazing houses, many of the owners of which I personally knew, but whose present condition — whether in or out of the flames — I could not tell. The conflagration lasted six days, till the whole of the dwellings were reduced to ashes or smoking ruins."
This could be a report of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in the 1990s. But it's actually an account by Donald Macleod, a native of Rosal, of the first Strathnaver clearances in 1814, the "year of the burning". In all, as many as 15,000 people were cleared from the 1.5 million acre estate of the Duke of Stafford (later made the Duke of Sutherland) in the years 1809-33: all to increase the income from the land by letting it to sheep farmers.
The initial 1814 clearances were undertaken by the Estate Factor, Patrick Sellar, who recorded a slightly different view of what happened: "Lord and Lady Stafford were pleased humanely to order the new arrangement of this country. That the interior should be possessed by Cheviot shepherds, and the people brought down to the coast and placed in lots of less than three acres, sufficient for the maintenance of an industrious family, pinched enough to cause them to turn their attention to the fishing. A most benevolent action, to put these barbarous Highlanders into a position where they could better associate together, apply themselves to industry, educate their children, and advance in civilisation."
As a result of his 1814 actions in Strathnaver, Sellar stood trial in April 1816 in Inverness on a range of charges including culpable homicide and fire raising. He was acquitted: clearly Sellar's view of the rights of "barbarous Highlanders" was shared by the judicial establishment of the day...
The most northerly and nearest single malt distillery to Strathnaver is Pulteney Distillery Co., Wick, Scotland KW1 5BA www.oldpulteney.com
Ancestry.co.uk “Scottish Settlers in North America 1625-1825 Vol. 1” ®4167
MCKAY, JOHN. A child aged between 2 and 8. Emigrated from Loch Broom, Ross-shire to Pictou, Nova Scotia on the Hector 1773 with father John, mother Mary and Margaret and Ann, age 2. (PB)
Settled Schubenacadie, N. S. (SHA) ®4167
McKay, JOHN Piper. From Loch Broom to N. S. on the Hector, July 1773. Settled Pictou, N. S. (SHA) ®4167
MCKAY, JOHN. Tenant. Ardnafouran, Arisaig, Invernessshire. Emigrated from Arisaig to Quebec on the British Queen on 16 August 1790 (PACAN) ®4167
Ancestry.co.uk “Scottish Soldiers in Colonial America” Parts 2 and 3 ®4168
MCKAY, JOHN. soldier of the Black Watch, land grant by Nashwaak River, New Brunswick, 1785 [PANB:MC315]
MCKAY, JOHN, [1],[2],[4], a soldier of Captain Alexander Campbell’s Company of the 78th [Fraser’s Highlanders] Regiment, discharged in Canada in October 1763. [PAC.R/G4.C2.Vol.1] ®4168
Public Archives of Canada
Spouses
1Marie-Archange MARTEL/MARTELLE ®4133, ®4134, ®4135, ®4108, ®4169, ®4089, ®4077, ®4137, ®4138, ®4139, ®4141, ®4170, ®4142, ®4171, ®4172, ®4173
®4133, ®4134, ®4135, ®4108, ®4169, ®4089, ®4077, ®4137, ®4138, ®4139, ®4141, ®4170, ®4142, ®4171, ®4172, ®4173Birth25 May 1792, Les Éboulements, MRC Charlevoix, Québec, Canada ®4174
MemoParoisse de L’Assumption
MemoSt-Pierre et St-Paul
FatherLouis MARTEL (<1762-1838)
MotherMarguerite (Marie-Anne) NADEAU (<1769-1812)
Misc. Notes
L'épouse est originaire des Éboulements. ®4133 She was from Baie St. Paul. ®4108 Her godfather was Antoine Tremblay and her godmother was Francoise ?Harault. ®4174
On the twenty second of April eighteen hundred and six, after the publication of three mariage bands done in our parish, in the name of our Mother Parish during the past three consecutive Sundays, between Jean Makaille [MacKay] Major Farmer from this parish on one side [of the family], and Marie Archange Martel minor daughter of Louis Martel and Marie-Anne Nadeau, the father and mother being from the parish of Notre Dame des Eboullements and being from the other side [of the family], and the same publication of bands having been made because the date which appeared in town is the same as the one which was on the certificate of Monsignor Marc Heteau, priest, today, in our hands, having found no delay whatsoever to the said marriage, we [I] undersigned Cure [priest] with the approval of the said Monsignor Marc Heteau, having received their virtues [agreements], from both of them, and have given them the Nuptial blessing as prescribed by our Holy Mother the Church, with consent of their parents, and that on the groom's side being: Paloneau Symards, friend of the [groom's] father [who is deceased], of Augustin Tremblay, and Pierre Drolet, friend of the groom, and on the bride's side: Louis Martel [father of the bride] and of Andre Tremblay, friend of the bride, and in the presence of many other relatives and friends of the groom and bride, which a few have signed. The groom has signed. The bride has declared not having been able to sign. The reading was done. signed: Pierre Drolette Jean MacKay H. L.s. LeFebvre [?], priest ®4178
At her marriage in 1806 the witnesses were Saloman Symard, Augustin Tremblay, Pierre Drolette, Louis Martel and Andre Tremblay. ®4179 They had six (6) children: Florence, Georges, Lucine, Alexandrine, Macrine and Louis. ®4180 She was age 39 when she died. None of her children were present at her burial. Michel Blaise (?gravedigger) and Joseph Bouchard were present. ®4170
On the twenty second of April eighteen hundred and six, after the publication of three mariage bands done in our parish, in the name of our Mother Parish during the past three consecutive Sundays, between Jean Makaille [MacKay] Major Farmer from this parish on one side [of the family], and Marie Archange Martel minor daughter of Louis Martel and Marie-Anne Nadeau, the father and mother being from the parish of Notre Dame des Eboullements and being from the other side [of the family], and the same publication of bands having been made because the date which appeared in town is the same as the one which was on the certificate of Monsignor Marc Heteau, priest, today, in our hands, having found no delay whatsoever to the said marriage, we [I] undersigned Cure [priest] with the approval of the said Monsignor Marc Heteau, having received their virtues [agreements], from both of them, and have given them the Nuptial blessing as prescribed by our Holy Mother the Church, with consent of their parents, and that on the groom's side being: Paloneau Symards, friend of the [groom's] father [who is deceased], of Augustin Tremblay, and Pierre Drolet, friend of the groom, and on the bride's side: Louis Martel [father of the bride] and of Andre Tremblay, friend of the bride, and in the presence of many other relatives and friends of the groom and bride, which a few have signed. The groom has signed. The bride has declared not having been able to sign. The reading was done. signed: Pierre Drolette Jean MacKay H. L.s. LeFebvre [?], priest ®4178
At her marriage in 1806 the witnesses were Saloman Symard, Augustin Tremblay, Pierre Drolette, Louis Martel and Andre Tremblay. ®4179 They had six (6) children: Florence, Georges, Lucine, Alexandrine, Macrine and Louis. ®4180 She was age 39 when she died. None of her children were present at her burial. Michel Blaise (?gravedigger) and Joseph Bouchard were present. ®4170
Research
As I was reviewing his marriage to Archange Martel, I noticed one of the people mentioned is Augustin Tremblay. Might this be none other than Louis-Roch-Augustin Tremblay husband of Marie-Anne Demolier? This would be Jean MacKay's uncle if this were the case. ®4162
ChildrenFlorence (1811-1891)
Georges (1812-1870)
Lucine “Lucie” (1815->1840)
Aléxandrine/Aléxandrienne (1818-1900)
Macorine/Macrine (1821-1830)
Louis S. (<1825-1913)