Person Page - 106

     Hugh de Creil was born in 990 at Creil, Oise, Picardy, France. He was the son of Renaud de Creil. Hugh de Creil died in 1060 at Creil, Oise, Picardy, France.

     Renaud de Creil was born in 970 at Creil, Oise, Picardy, France. He died after 1047.

     Richard III Duke of Normandy was born circa 997 at Rouen, Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France. He was the son of Richard II 'The Good' Duke of Normandy and Judith of Brittany. Richard III Duke of Normandy married Adele (AdelaAelisAlais) Princess of France, daughter of Robert II 'The Pious' King of France and Constance of Provence, in 1027.² Richard III Duke of Normandy died on 6 August 1027; (dspl.)²

     Hugh Bardoul Seigneur de Broyes was born circa 1014 at Broyes, Marne, Champagne, France. He was the son of Isembert Sire de Broyes. Hugh Bardoul Seigneur de Broyes died after 1058.²
     He CP states that Hugh was of Brozes, which I cannot find anywhere. Foronce I think I will go with Turton, who says 'Broyes', or in anotherplace 'Broye'. Perhaps they are all names for the same place.

     Eberhard Count of Beteau was born circa 1006 at Betuwe, Netherlands. He was the son of Godizo Count of Beteau.

     Adalbert III Count Longwy , Duke Upper Lorraine was born circa 1012 at Longwy, Meurthe-et-Moselle, Lorraine, France. He was the son of Gerhard II Count of Metz and Gisella of Alsace. Adalbert III Count Longwy , Duke Upper Lorraine died in 1048.¹

     Clemence de Foix was born circa 1015 at Foix, Ariege, Midi-Pyreneees, France. She was the daughter of Bernard-Rodger Seigneur de Foix , Count Bigorre and Gersinde Countess de Bigorre.
     Clemence de Foix In a post to soc.genealogy.medieval, Todd Farmerie reports that ClemenceFoix does not even exist. I am keeping her as a place holder untilfurther research indicates a possible replacement. @@@@check ancestry.

From: Todd A. Farmerie (farmerie AT interfold.com)
Subject: Etiennette of Longwy - NOT!!!!
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-04-25 23:30:18 PST


I just got in the mail the latest publication of the Unit forProsopographical Research - Prosopographica et Genealogica, vol.3,Onomastioque et Parente dans l'Occident medieval, K. S. B. Keats-Rohanand C. Settipani, eds. (2000). I have not had a chance to read beyondthe first couple of articles, but even the first one will be of interestto many in this group. Szabolcs de Vajay here contributes a reevaluationof his elegant work on Etiennette/Estefania/Stephanie, wife of William,Count of Burgundy.

In a 1960 article appearing in Annales de Bourgogne, he evaluated thesurviving sources, and focussed particularly on two contemporary onesthat appeared to illuminate the question. One of these indicated thatPope Callixte (son of Etiennette) was of mixed parentage, one parentbeing Burgundian, and the other from Lorraine. The second sourcementioned a Countess Ermesende of Longwy - taken to be the mother ofClemence, Countess of Luxembourg, and wife of William VII of Aquitaine.Vajay was led to conclude that these two women, apparently both ofLorraine but with Mediteranean names, represented a single family group.At about this time Longwy was held by an Adelbert, identified with theDuke of Lorraine, who was then tapped as father. At the same time, thenames Ermesende and Etiennette appeared in the family of Bernard Roger,Count of Foix (another sibling was Raimond, a name which Etiennette ofBurgundy would give a son), so the mother of the Lorraine Ermesende andEtiennette was hypothesized as another sibling in this family,provisionally named Clemence (the name of daughters of both Ermesende andEtiennette). Thus the question has stood for four decades (with only afew historians dissenting). (Thus it has likewise appeared in secondarysources which failed to indicate the hypothetical nature of the solution,from which it has entered innumerable personal and public databases.)

In his new analysis, entitled 'Parlons encore d'Etiennette' (pp. 2-6),Vajay goes through his previous proof, and step by step he destroys it.

The first source, describing the parentage of Callixte, is now known notto refer to the son of Etiennette, but to her grandson of the same name,who was son of Louis of Montbeliard and Ermesende of Burgundy - parentagethat matches his described mixed origins. The other source can now beshown to refer not to the mother of Clemence Countess of Luxembourg, butto her daughter Ermesende who married Adelbert de Dabo - the Adelbert ofLongwy mistakenly associated with the Duke of Lorraine. Taken together,there is no longer any support for a connection with Lorraine (and noreason to think that Duke Adelbert married or had any issue at all). Morecritically, it becomes clear that with these two pieces of evidenceremoved from relevance, there is no contemporary source that bearsdierctly on the question.

One recent author, A. Beau, approached the question by returning to thework of Pere Anselme, who wrote that Etiennette was daughter of RaimondII of Barcelona and his wife Sancha of Navarre. With minormodifications, this possibility is attractive. The man Anselme appearsto have had in mind was Count Berenger I Raimond II, who married SanchaSanchez of Castile. This Berenger is now thought to have had a sisterEtiennette (for whom he might have named a daughter), while in his fourthwife (who Beau would make mother of our Etiennette) we have Guisla ofLluca, for whom Etiennette would have named her daughter Gisela, and thissolution would also explain the use of Raimond.

Vajay is, however, not entirely enthusiastic about this solution. Firstof all, Beau's reasoning that Anselme's account was likely based on anaccurate tradition/source is belied by the fact that Beau then gives hera father Berenger and mother Guisla (with Berenger's first wife, Sancha,being from Castile), while Anselme had named them Raimond and Sancha ofNavarre. Likewise, this solution fails to explain the appearance of thename Clemence (unknown among the Barcelona Counts, although Guisla'sancestry is not fully characterized), while finally, there is the problemof the relationship between Henry, Count of Portugal and Raimond, Countof Galicia (Etiennette's son).

The word 'congermanus' is used to describe the relationship between Henryand Raymond. This word is usually used to refer to what we would nowcall second cousins or even more distant relations, the children (ordescendants) of first cousins. By Vajay's old solution, this would bethe case, both being grandchildren's-grandchildren of Count Roger ofCarcassonne, with Henry's mother postulated as daughter of Berenger andGuisla. Moving Raimond's mother to the same family renders the twoCounts first cousins, which is too close. (Vajay would now instead placeHenry's mother as sister of Berenger, but the problem remains.) This cannot be simply dismissed by suggesting that 'congermanus' is being usedsomewhat atypically here to refer to first cousins, since Raimond'ssister Sybil married Henry's brother Eudes and a marriage of firstcousins (? once removed) certainly would have been considered too close.In light of this, Vajay tends to dismiss this solution as well.

He concludes by stating that the fate of his earlier theory should serveas a warning about the uncertain nature of such arguments based more ononomastics and hypothesis than direct proof. This is perhaps a goodwarning with which to start this book, as the articles that follow derivefrom a group of researchers that uses just such methods to reconstructrelationships among family groups.

     Bernard-Rodger Seigneur de Foix , Count Bigorre was born circa 974 at Carcassonne, Aude, Languedoc, France. He died on 22 August 1036 at Foix, Ariege, Midi-Pyreneees, France.
     He Count of Carcassone.

     William I (Guillaume) Comte de Nevers was born circa 1030 at Nevers, Nievre, Bourgogne, France.¹ He was the son of Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre and Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France. William I (Guillaume) Comte de Nevers married Ermengarde de Tonnerre, daughter of Renhard II (Renaud) Comte de Tonnerre and Helvise de Noyon, in 1045.¹ William I (Guillaume) Comte de Nevers died on 20 June 1100.¹

     Ermengarde de Tonnerre was born circa 1030 at Tonnerre, Yonne, Bourgogne, France. She was the daughter of Renhard II (Renaud) Comte de Tonnerre and Helvise de Noyon. Ermengarde de Tonnerre married William I (Guillaume) Comte de Nevers, son of Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre and Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France, in 1045.¹ Ermengarde de Tonnerre died before 1090.³
     She Copied below is a two-part post to SGM, 5 Dec 1998, by the noted Frenchgenealogist Settipani:

From: SETTIPANI (inapit AT club-internet.fr)
Subject: De NEVERS
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 1998/12/05

The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part I

The question about Nevers has raised up three answers, all of threeerroneous. As many - if not the most - answers about Early Middle Ages. Iwill speak thereafter of Constantia of Provence (not Toulouse !).Briefly, the problem is that nowhere a medieval source or a modernscientific work is invoqued (and I don’t take in consideration thetriumphant ‘et voilà !’ of my french countryman or his pleasant ‘manynights on internet’ or the Stuart, Weiss and so). So, the same mistakesare conscenciously repeated. Most of dates are at best conjectural, namesare confusing, and genealogies dubious or false. The genealogy of thecounts of Tonnerre was much debatted, notably by E. Petit, M. Chaume, J.Laurent, C. Bouchard, J.-N. Mathieu. I give the simplest -and the best-presentation :

1 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), m. Wilhelm (Guillaume, William) of Nevers.
2 Renhard II (Renard), count of Tonnerre ...1002-1039... (b. c. 993, d.c. 1040).
3 Helvisa (Heilwig, Helvise, Heloise), fl. 1018.
4 Milo (Milon) IV, count of Tonnerre ...993..., d. bef. 1002.
5 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), widow of Herbert IV of Vermandois, d. aft.1018.
8 Milo III, count of Tonnerre ...975-980..., d. c. 987.
9 Engeltrudis (Engeltrude), fl. 980.
16 Wido I (Guy), count of Tonnerre, d.bef. 975 (958 ?).
17 Adela (Adele), widow 975.
32 ? Renhard I, count of Tonnerre ...890-896...
64 Milo II, count of Langres & Tonnerre ...887...
65 Adela, widow 902.

Sources : many nights on Cartularies and ...

no 1 (Gesta Pontif., p. 398-402) ; no 2 (cart. Yonne, no 94 ; E. Petit,Hist. ducs Bourg., II, p. 428-9) ; no 3 (E. Petit, II, p. 428-9) ; no 4(cart. Yonne, no 80, 81, 94) ; no 5 (cart. Yonne, no 81) ; no 8 (cart.Yonne, no 76, cart. St-Benoit, no 61) ; no 9 (cart. Yonne, no 76) ; no 16(cart. Yonne, no 94, cart. Cluny, II, no 1044 ?) ; no 17 (cart.St-Benoit, no 61, cart. Cluny, no 625 ?) ; no 32 (Cart. Montieramey, n°12) ; no 64 (cart. Yonne, no 94, dipl. Charles III, 887, cart.St-Benigne, no 154) ; no 65 (cart. St-Benigne, no 154).

Cartulaire general de l’Yonne, ed. M. Quantin, vol. I, Auxerre, 1854.
Chartes et documents de Saint-Benigne de Dijon, t. II (1943), éd. G.
Chevrier & M. Chaume, t. I (1986), éd. R. Folz & J. Marilier.
Arthur Giry, Documents carolingiens de l’abbaye de Montieramey, Etudesd’histoire du moyen age dediees a G. Monod, Paris, 1896, p. 107-136.
Gesta Pontificum Autissiodorensium, ed. M. Duru, Auxerre, 1850.
Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923), 2vol., ed. P. Lauer, Paris 1940-9.
Recueil des chartes de l’abbaye de de Cluny (802-1300), Paris, 6 vol.,1876-1903, éd. A. Bernard et A. Bruel.
Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Saint-Benoit-sur-Loire, ed. M. Prou etA. Vidier, vol. I, Paris, 1900.

The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part II

The ancestry of Helvisa (no 3) is unknown, but I suppose her a niece ofHardoin, bishop of Noyon (1015-1027) (M. Chaume believed she was a sisterof his). Hardoin is brother of Garnier and son of Robert of Croyes.Probably they are issued of Waltharius (Gauthier, Walter), count ofValois, Amiens and Vexin (d. c. 992/8), grandson of the caroligianHelvisa.

The family of Ermengardis (no 5), widow of Herbert, not the reverse, isnot « Bar-sur-Seine » (one misunderstanding hypothesis of E. Petit: sucha dynasty does not exist at this time). She was, I think, the daughter ofAlberic II of Macon and his second wife. Engeltrudis (no 9) is certainly,as showed by E. Petit, of Brienne family. She was more probably thesister (not daughter) of Engelbert I and Gau(s)bert. May be they are thenephews of Engeltrudis, viscountess of Chalon and the posterity ofGausbert of Nevers, grandson of an Engeltrudis.

The family of Adela (no 17) is not identified. Her name and hergranddaughter’s, Liedgardis, point to Vermandois. But the name Liedgardiscome perhaps via Engeltrudis : Engeltrudis of Chalon was probably motherof Liedgardis of Dijon. So, the best solution was that of M. Chaume, thecountess Adela is the same that Adela, sister Leotald of Macon, who makean important donation in 958 for the soul of a Wido, may be the count ofTonnerre.

Renard (no 32) is not attested as member of the family. He is named as acount in a trial about Tonnerrois and fit at the good place for themissing generation in the family (to justify Renard II’s name, wich wasno more inherited from a pseudo ‘Bar-sur-Seine’ dynasty, and because MiloII’s daughter was a Ren-trude).

Last, Adela (no 65) : if her son was really a Renhard, she was undoubtlythe sister of Renhard and Manasses I of Auxerre. The family’s origin isLotharingian.

Bibliography :
C. Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister. Nobility and the church inBurgundy, 980-1198, Londres 1987.
M. Chaume, Les origines du duche de Bourgogne, vol. I, Dijon, 1925.
M. Chaume, Recherches d’Histoire Chretienne et medievale, 1947, p.260-277.
J. Laurent, L’origine du comté de bar-sur-Seine, Annales de Bourgogne,(1951), p. 172-180.
J.-N. Mathieu, Recherches sur les premiers comtes de Tonnerre et deBar-sur-Seine, Bulletin de la société d’archéologie et d’histoire duTonnerois , 47 (1994), p. 21-29.
E. Petit, Histoire des ducs de Bourgogne de la race capétienne, 6 vol.,Paris, 1885-1898.
C. Settipani, Les origines maternelles du comte de BourgogneOtte-Guillaume, Annales de Bourgogne, 66 (1994), p. 5-63.
C. Settipani, Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et XIe
siècles, dans K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (ed.), Family trees and the Roots ofPolitics, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267.
C. Settipani, Les Widonides : le destin d’une famille aristocratiquefranque du VIe au Xe siècle, memoire de D.E.A., Paris Sorbonne, 1998.

     Renhard II (Renaud) Comte de Tonnerre was born circa 993 at Tonnerre, Yonne, Bourgogne, France.² He was the son of Milo IV Comte de Tonnerre and Ermengarde de Macon. Renhard II (Renaud) Comte de Tonnerre died on 16 July 1039.³

     Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre married Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France, daughter of Robert II 'The Pious' King of France and Constance of Provence, AFT 25 JAN 1016/17.² Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre was born circa 1000 at Nevers, Nievre, Bourgogne, France. He was the son of Landeric IV (Landry) Comte de Nevers and Mathilde (Maud) of Burgundy. Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre died on 29 May 1040 at Battle at Seignelay, Yonne, Bourgogne, France.¹

     Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France married Renaud I Comte de Nevers , & Auxerre, son of Landeric IV (Landry) Comte de Nevers and Mathilde (Maud) of Burgundy, AFT 25 JAN 1016/17.² Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France was born before November 1005 at Auxerre, Yonne, Bourgogne, France.² She was the daughter of Robert II 'The Pious' King of France and Constance of Provence. Adele (AdvisaAvoieAlais) Princess of France died after 5 June 1063.^1,3
     She Adele of France, [daughter of Robert II by Constance of Provence],Countess of Auxerre, d. ca. 1063; m. Renaud I, d. 29 May 1040, Count ofNevers 1000-1040. [Ancestral Roots, line 107-20]

Note: Deborah L. Bay, in an e-mail, pointed out that Adele was born aboutthe same time as Adele/Aelis, who was married to Richard III, Duke ofNormandy & Baldwin V, Count of Flanders. Even though they wereapparently named the same, born about the same time, and to the sameparents, they are different sisters, with different death dates,different titles, and they both had children by their different husbandsat exactly the same time (1030). I have encountered this situation wherechildren are named the same 3 or 4 other times (more often/commonly whenone died young).

     Gilbert I de Lacy , of Hereford was born circa 1100 at Hereford, Herefordshire, England. He was the son of Hugh Talbot , of Shrewsbury, Sir and Emma de Lacy. Gilbert I de Lacy , of Hereford died after 1163.³

     Agnes (?) was born circa 1100 at England.

     Hugh Talbot , of Shrewsbury, Sir married Emma de Lacy, daughter of Walter I de Lacy and Emeline (?). Hugh Talbot , of Shrewsbury, Sir was born circa 1078 at Shrewsbury, Shropshire, England. He was the son of Richard I Talbot , of Battlesden, Sir and Aimee d' Aubigny. Hugh Talbot , of Shrewsbury, Sir married an unknown person circa 1120.^1,2 He died after 1123.
     He Some people have Hugh's death as 1120, and at least one other has 'aft1123'. I believe that his death may have been well after 1123, otherwiseBeatrice would not have divorced him, and later married William de Say.

No printed source that I have indicates that Hugh married Emma de Lacy.Emma's sister Agnes certainly m. Geoffrey Talbot.

     Emma de Lacy married Hugh Talbot , of Shrewsbury, Sir, son of Richard I Talbot , of Battlesden, Sir and Aimee d' Aubigny. Emma de Lacy was born circa 1082 at Herefordshire, England. She was the daughter of Walter I de Lacy and Emeline (?) Emma de Lacy died before 1120.
     She No printed source that I have indicates the identity of Emma's husband(father of Gilbert).. Emma's sister Agnes certainly m. Geoffrey Talbot.

     Walter I de Lacy was born before 1050 at Lassy, Calvados, Normandy, France. He was the son of Hugh de Lacy and Emma (?) Walter I de Lacy died in April 1085.¹

     Emeline (?) was born circa 1060 at Normandy, France.

     Osbern I de Bolbec , Seigneur of Longueville was born circa 945 at Bolbec, Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France. He died in 1035 at Longueville-sur-Scie, Seine-Inferieure, Normandy, France.²
     He 1028-1035 Seigneur of Longueville-sur-Scie. [Ancestral Roots, line 184-1]

     Miss de Macon was born circa 970 at Macon, Saone-et-Loire, Bourgogne, France. She was the daughter of Alberic II Count of Macon , & Salins and Ermentrude (Irmgard) de Roucy.
     Miss de Macon Leo van de Pas, citing ES, has Giselbert's wife as 'NN de Poitiers', withno ancestry or other information given. I don't know whether this isanother name for 'Miss de Macon' or not.

     Miss de Essex was born circa 1037 at Stapleford Tawney, Ongar, Essex, England. She was the daughter of Robert FitzWimarc.

     Robert FitzWimarc was born circa 1015 at Moyaux, Calvados, Normandy, France. He died before 1075 at Theydon Mount, Ongar, Essex, England.³
     He The following is a post to SGM, 21 Jul 2003, by Chris Phillips:

From: Chris Phillips (cgp AT medievalgenealogy.org.uk)
Subject: Re: Matilda a dau of Adam fitz Swain
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-07-21 00:32:14 PST

Actually, this is a rare example of a matronymic, as discussed byKeats-Rohan in the introduction to Domesday People (p. 19). Apparently,J. H. Round originally pointed out that 'Wimarc' was a woman (as statedexplicitly by William of Poitiers), but suggested that her name indicatedshe was a Breton (in 'Feudal England', pp. 256, 257). But Keats-Rohanpoints to statements by Vita AEdwardi Regis that Robert was a kinsman ofEdward the Confessor, and by William of Poitiers that he was related toWilliam the Conqueror. She suggests that as he was identified by hismother, she 'was surely a high-born Norman', related to the ducal house.

She goes on to cite references from charters of the abbey ofMontivilliers, near Le Havre, which mention a nun Vuimardis/Wimardis,widow of Ansfrid the steward, and her apparent son Robert de Moyaux(Calvados, cant. Lisieux-1, who gave land formerly held by Ansfrid.

Chris Phillips

------------------------

From VCH-Essex:

Before 1066 THEYDON MOUNT was held by Godric as a manor and as 3 hidesand 80 acres. After the Conquest it was given by William I to Robert FitzWimarc, who was still alive in 1069 but had been succeeded in or before1075 by his son Swein. Robert was Sheriff of Essex and the office waslater held by Swein. Swein made his castle at Rayleigh, which became thehead of his honor and from that time the manor of Theydon Mount wasalways held of the Honor of Rayleigh. In 1086 the manor was held of Sweinby one Robert. Swein was succeeded by his son Robert of Essex, thefounder of Prittlewell Priory, and Robert of Essex was succeeded by hisson Henry of Essex.

In 1163 Henry of Essex, then Constable of England, failed to clearhimself of a charge of cowardice during a war against the Welsh, and wasdeprived of all his lands.

[From: 'Theydon Mount: Manors', A History of the County of Essex: Volume4: Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 276-81. URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15710&strquery=fitz%20wimarc. Date accessed: 27 August 2005]

Also:

In 1066 STAPLEFORD TAWNEY was held by Godric as 1 manor and as 5 hides.Of these 5 hides he 'gave to his 10 free men freely 4 hides, retaining 1hide in demesne'. After the Conquest Robert Fitz Wimarc had the 1 hide bythe king's gift and his son Swein of Essex added the 4 hides to it afterhis father's death. In 1086 the manor was held of Swein by Siric. At thattime the manor, which had been worth £8 before 1066, was worth £10. In1086 Swein of Essex held the honor of Rayleigh, and the manor ofStapleford Tawney continued to be held of that honor, which escheated tothe Crown in the 12th century, until after 1550.

[From: 'Stapleford Tawney: Manors', A History of the County of Essex:Volume 4: Ongar Hundred (1956), pp. 234-36. URL:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=15681&strquery=fitz%20wimarc. Date accessed: 27 August 2005]

     Eustace Comte de Picquigny was born circa 1042 at Picquigny, Somme, Picardy, France. He was the son of Guermond I Comte de Picquigny and Adele (?) Eustace Comte de Picquigny died in 1085.

     Guermond I Comte de Picquigny was born circa 1013 at Picquigny, Somme, Picardy, France. He died in 1085.

     Adele (?) was born circa 1020 at France.

     Miss de Nogent was born circa 975 at Nogent-le-Roi, Eure-et-Loire, Beauce/Centre, France.

     Miss Countess of Bayeux was born circa 970 at Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France. She was the daughter of Balso Count of Bayeux.

     Balso Count of Bayeux was born circa 930 at Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France.

     Lucie de l' Aigle was born circa 1135 at Egenoul, France. She was the daughter of Richard II Sire of Egenoul. Lucie de l' Aigle died after 1217.